Have Homeopaths Reached Peak Stupid?

21st November, 2014 Andy L featured, homeopathy 243

Remove hot drinks and sharp objects from your immediate vicinity.

Across the world, homeopaths today are trying to ‘heal the oceans’. To do so, British homeopath, Grace DaSilva-Hill, has been writing to appeal to other homeopaths to drop some homeopathic remedies into the sea. She tells homeopaths that those not close to the sea can instead drop their remedies into a river. If even this is too challenging, then Grace advises homeopaths that they can flush their homeopathic remedies down the toilet. Yes, today, homeopaths worldwide are getting rid of their pills by flushing them down the toilet.

Now, hold on to something tight.

Grace tells her colleagues that even if they do not have access to the right homeopathic remedy then they can just ‘speak the name of the remedy to a glass of water, and the water will memorise the energy of the remedy’. Apparently, it is best to do this with ‘pure love and intention’.Never has there been a clearer example of Frazer’s Sympethetic Magic. Homeopaths practice witchcraft.

The remedy that is to be used today is called Leuticum – a homeopathic preparation of the syphilis bacterium. Quite what the homeopaths intend to cure the oceans of with this is anyones guess. For completeness, a copy of the email, which landed in a public forum, is given below in its full comic sans glory.

oceans

We might dismiss this as the fantasies of a small group of homeopaths. However, such thinking is widespread in homeopathic circles and has consequences. Grace is a well known homeopath in the UK, and in the past, has been a trustee and treasurer for the Ghana Homeopathy Project – an organisation that has been exporting this European form of quackery to West Africa. Grace believes that serious illnesses can be treated by a homeopath. For an article in the journal of the Alliance of Registered Homeoapths, Grace discusses treating such conditions as menigitis, malaria and stroke.

Homeopaths in West Africa have hit the news this week as a group tried to enter Liberia in order to use their spells on people with Ebola. The WHO fortunately tried not let them near any actual sick people and they have been kicking and screaming since. The Daily Mail’s rather dreadful article reported that they

“had used homeopathic treatments on patients, despite the instructions from health officials in the capital Monrovia not to do so. She said she had not felt the need to quarantine herself after returning to India but was monitoring her own condition for any signs of the disease.”

The homeopaths appear to have absolutely no understanding how how dangerous and irresponsible their actions have been.

A few weeks back I tweeted asking if the UK organisation representing doctors who use homeopathy would condemn those homeopaths who travel to Africa to try to treat and prevent ebola with sugar pills.

The Faculty of Homeoapthy have now indeed placed a statement on their website.

Ebola

15/11/2014

The Faculty of Homeopathy denounces the use of homeopathy as an alternative in the management of the Ebola outbreak. We support the use of homeopathy alongside conventional care in order to make a difference for any individual. Good public health has always been a cornerstone of high quality homeopathic practice.

I find this statement unacceptable. Whilst appearing to denounce the use of homeopathy near ebola patients it is still giving the green light for those homeopaths to go to West Africa in order to use it “alongside” real medical care. It is doing nothing to stop the magical fantasists from interfering in this desperate work to save lives. And this is from qualified medical doctors in the UK.

Homeopathy is stupid. Magical thinking. A nonsense. Anything goes. And whilst those doctors in the NHS who insist on spending public money on it without taking a responsible stand against the common and dangerous excesses, they can expect to remain under constant fire from those who think they are doing a great deal of harm.

 

 

Related posts:

  1. Society Warns Homeopaths not to Talk About Ebola.
  2. A Simple Challenge to Homeopaths
  3. Homeopaths Find The Solution – Hire PR Consultants.
  4. Ottolenghi and the Quack HIV Homeopaths in Africa

241 Comments on Have Homeopaths Reached Peak Stupid?

  1. How can people believe this stupidity I’ll never be able to understand. My water by my bedside did not say g’mornin’ Louis – did yours?

    Reply

    • Well, after growing up believing in magical talking snakes, burning bushes, and the god-ordained gift of healing, and an immunity to poison and poisonous animals, is it any wonder these ‘children of a lesser god’ can swallow anything?

      Reply

      • Stevo,
        Surely your ‘counter’ has PROOF to BACK UP your bold upfront comments- and that’s all they are-a ‘post.’ WHERE is your proof tthose things didn’t take place? Until you offer solid concrete irrefutable evidence we will go on believing as we wish. You atheists are squeaks and grunts, but no proof.

      • Burden of proof is on those making the claim, not those who do not believe claims made without proof. Claims of talking snakes require evidence to be believed. Not believing until such evidence is provided requires no evidence whatsoever.

      • Nice way to escape and continue to play the all seeing and all knowing I have viewed the entire universe and I know you are in error. We know you are the great Genius who will save we falsely led humans. Sorry, mate you are against so PROVE with concrete solid facts and save us from ‘holy’ delusions!
        If you are going to prove billions of people wrong give us the courtesy of your I know it all vast storehouse of knowledge and wisdom. Don’t hide it from us with trite it’s not my job escapists posts. We are waiting for your profound refutations with great excitement.

      • http://www.quitpaxil.org/Main/stories.htm
        Please help these people dear posters that took mg. doses of ‘science’ based meds ,yet they have big problems. The rest? dead or brain damaged. Check it out study and above all think! Incidentally there are thousands of such people writing about(sorry the German pilot who took psychotropic prescription drugs can’t!) their terrible issues with this ONE drug. Then you can keep going to the next drug and the next – it’s endless.
        A close associate was depressed. He went to a therapist. The MD proffered Paxil. He took it as prescribed. In a fairly short time or about two weeks he began to ‘desire to kill his two daughters’ whom he loved. Then his wife and finally about a month or so later he wanted to ‘get a gun and go out and start shooting people!’
        He finally realized it was the drug that was causing this reaction. When he stopped it all of those intense feelings went away in about a week or so. He went back to the MD and ‘threw the prescription bottle on his desk’ and called it a ‘dark’ drug. That was a few years ago and he has been fine.
        More on this and mass killers.

      • Don’t compare those of us who believe this astoundingly complex universe must have had a creator with leftard nutjobs. Why must atheists have such a (hateful) negative attitude toward believers (especially those of us pro-science believer – many of whom are actual scientists)? I pity you guys and your ulcers.

    • It’s pretty easy, really. People want to think they matter and that they have some control over a vast and scary universe that, on the whole, doesn’t give a wet @#$% about them.

      So when someone comes along and tells them they’re special and that they can make a difference they don’t stop to think it through.

      Reply

      • You do NOT know anyone whose illness was cured by homeopathy exclamation mark. It is not possible exclamation mark..How many times do you need telling? WATER AND SUGAR PILLS CAN NOT CURE DISEASES. And if I hear one more gullible refer triumphantly to the concept of ‘Big Pharma’ I swear I’ll headbutt my fridge.

      • I’ll state right now that homeopath is absolutely stupid, and does not cure disease. My guess would lie in people giving “Remedies” That do jack shit, and then the person just gets lucky and overcomes the sickness of their own. On scare few occasions, the shit they swill down has a few natural properties that alleviate symptoms for a while, and they take that as just getting cured, then coming back down with the disease.

      • Look, to be honest with you, because some of the homeopath statements are so woofingly mad I can’t tell the difference now. I’m seriously starting to lose track. Except our side’s INTENTIONALLY funnier. I had had to explain to someone a few days back that MY comment was sarcastic and he’d misunderstood. When you get a belief system that claims the more you dilute something, the more potent it becomes, then essentially all comedy bets are off..We’re all at sea here.I just hope it’s not the same sea that’s been turned into a poisonous inferno by all these crackpots chucking their potions in and super-diluting them.

      • Mr. Hypercritical/judgmental- go to a website locate a Dr. of Psychiatry. You have a personality disorder. I posted Kool “AIDE” as this is my humorous- something you severely lack-nomenclature for prescription drugs. No misspelling!

    • Why don’t you guys bitch and moan- as that’s all you like to do -about all of the traces of deadly toxic side effect laden pharma drugs being placed in the water through: dumping by consumers; drug manufacturing companies in water streams, etc.; and tablets/caps that do not fully dissolve and are passed as waste? “63 pharmaceuticals(after that you don’t need to keep finding more drugs Good god 63 is enough!!!) and their byproducts” ‘found in 24’ cities drinking water thus far as each city water supply is tested. It will be 100% as UI read tests almost daily. Disgusting.
      And this has been verified by scientific tests numerous times. I have read them. Traces of deadly toxic side effect laden pharma drugs are found in our universal drinking and water supplies!!!
      If someone wants to ‘dump’ safe natural elements into our water and be called a ‘goof’ this is far, far better than toxic pharma drugs like traces of, Prozac, Paxil, Oxycodone, etc, etc., being ‘dumped’ in various ways into our drinking water!!! No?

      Why don’t guys stop majoring in minors and focus on majors? If one person is coming at you with a bean shooter; and a well trained army of 10,000 is coming with modern weapons who gets the attention? Duh.

      These drugs in the USA alone-not counting all other countries! kill OVER 150,000, including infants and young children EACHYEAR!!! Over 1.5 million are irreparably injured each year in the US alone. Over a million med hospital mistakes that maim and permanently harm people including infants and children. Go back ten years and do the math. How many precious human lives is that?
      I have given you a major. OMG THINK!!! I know it’s much,much easier -even ‘fun’ -and it gives your egos a rush to feel superior and so ‘intelligent’ and informed to jump all over alternate therapies; but will you FACE the real serous FACTS here? Jump on them, yes; but be fair and balanced, and ‘get’ that ‘army of 10,000′ with modern deadly weapons too! Stick it to ’em also.

      Reply

      • I am terribly sorry that my subject matter does not meet your own personal theshold of importance.

        Perhaps you could supply a list of issues worldwide that we must discuss and solve before we can mention what idiots homeopaths are and how they harm people.

      • Yes mad as hades that there are so many stupid people and dumb webmasters that run so called ‘skeptic’ sites wiling to take ‘scientific’ (it’s not ‘science’ to develop substances that kill and cause grave side effects that even take ones life or maim them for life STUDY international stats stop being intellectually lazy about facts and picking on an easy target ) drugs and dying or being permanently maimed in the process! You are worried and deeply concerned about homeopathics and some goofs in that profession ; but show NO concern -no emotion- zero feelings over all of the thousands of deaths internationally caused ‘orthodox’ drugs!!! Alcohol kills and mains too! There’s another target for you one that means something to human beings. At least that the producers of that product don’t profess to be scientific’ as they product kills and maims. You exhibit sociopathic tendencies.
        Stem cells will be the way to go not pharma drugs.

      • I am sorry that you feel that my blog post does not inlcude topics on your own Personal List of Important Things. Please let me know where I can see a Ranked Heirarchy of Important Subjects so that I can be sure only to ever address the top issues that meet your approval.

      • The real statistics on both non lethal and lethal side effects that you misquote are painstakingly accumulated by skeptics. You obviously don’t realise that all scientists and research doctors of any worth have to be sceptical. They use similar techniques of clinical trial and analysis that demonstrate that homeopathy is a placebo.

        Next, homeopathy is not a profession, it is a scam. Dressing up in white coats and assuming the title of ‘dr’, does not a profession make.

        Homeopathy is not a profession and is not benign. In addition to the well documented cases of homeopaths who have killed sick people because of their ignorance, there is the far higher death toll of those who have been convinced to forego vaccination and anti retroviral drugs.

        I have never seen any remorse from a homeopath for these unecessary deaths, quite the reverse.

      • Awesome! If water has “memory,” than I should be totally cured of depression, high blood pressure, erectile dysfunction, (oh wait, I’m a chick) bacterial infections, and so on, just by drinking water out of my tap! I’m mean, the water’s gotta “remember” all those med’s, right? (Not to mention the feces, the urine, the bacteria, the dead animals…)

      • My your brain doth quit its habitation!!! You are obsessed with homeopathy (we are really moving towards stem cells not any kind of ‘drug’ as it relates to health- study for once ) when I clearly refer to molecular partulates of a wide variety of drugs which concerned scientists are very alarmed about because they study – they think- they test something you clearly need to practice;at least between your mindless TV viewing.Joking or not it clearly reflects defective delusional, er, ‘thinking.’

      • Tell me ‘Dr’ Davis. You appear to be concerned that the subject of this blog post is not serious enough and you think you have an issue that is much more serious that ought to be discussed. Why are you telling us that in this web site and not all the other pages on the web that discuss less serious things like cats, cooking recipes and sharks?

  4. I think it’s fairly obvious why the so-called ‘Faculty’ of Homeopaths -not the important-sounding name- would wish to distance itself from claims that Homeopathy can cure Ebola. They know that this is a very specific, testable claim, and when it proved false all but the fantastically gullible would see the stupidity of it. And of course people who might otherwise be alive would be dead. That’s why they want to be allowed to work ‘alongside’ proper doctors. They want- utterly maliciously- to take some credit for any cures which were effected by real Medicine, by pretending that those treatments were effective only because the Delusionists were working ‘alongside’ the real doctors. I’ve got a battery-operated drumming rabbit toy that me Mum and Dad brought back from Hong Kong for me. Maybe we could put him next to a Doctor so that he in his way would be ‘working alongside’. Proof that clockwork rabbits cure Ebola.

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  5. And anyway- if, as the Homeopaths tell us a Woo potion becomes more powerful, and even lethal, the more it’s diluted, why are they risking the destruction of the World’s Oceans by chucking their potions in there? These people should be arrested.

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  6. I thought homeopaths weren’t fans of the idea of bacteria causing disease (or dis-ease as they of-ten pref-er) so I’m curious as to how well this notion of tipping Leuticum into the seas is accepted.

    Not having spent much time on the forum in question I’m not sure how much of this sort of thing is outlier-ish compared to some of the (comparatively less odd) other ideas that homeopaths come up with.

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  7. Oh and by the way -am I the only one irritated by these idiots referring to their daft set-up as a ‘fFaculty’? I suppose they think it makes the whole thing sound more ‘Sciencey’ and all ‘Academic’ and that.

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  9. i would have thought one drop only would be sufficient to heal all the waters on earth. overkill !!!
    ebola: people who wander into sealed-off ares should be kept in there until the whole area and its population is declared safe. needs an unbribable police force, though.

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  10. Has this really been thought through?

    By this time tomorrow the oceans will be swarming with super-energised sea creatures, in peak physical condition and no doubt growing to monstrous proportions. According to every sci-fi and Gothic horror story ever, this will not end well.

    What is the risk to shipping, coastal towns, etc?

    Is the military standing by?

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  11. Very well paid spoof! Homeopathy is not thebullshit written here, it’s a time tested remedy, not the nonsense as explained herein. The writer has been paid handsomely and so goes this nonsense!

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    • Why do all the followers of homeopathy and other foolishness believe that anyone who criticizes it has been ‘paid handsomely’ to do so? As to homeopathy being a ‘time tested remedy’- well, that’ part is true. It’s been tested time and again and has been proven to be nonsense.

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    • Hey, I’ve written in the past about how homeopathy is complete nonsense. Where do I sign to get my cheque? If I knew there was money in it I would have written even less (thus increasing the potency of my message, therefore earning even more money for me!)

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      • I’ve written several piss-take 1-star reviews of Homeopathy books on Amazon, but all that happens is that the more ‘diluted’ the review is-following Homeopathic principles- the more potent it becomes. I’d have been better handing out 5 stars. They won’t allow more. But that’s where it all becomes very confusing anyway. I suppose in Homeopathic terms a 5-star review would be too strong, therefore not so effective. Whereas a 0-star review might be so potent that Amazon would blow up. It’s HARD this Pseudoscience lark innit?

      • As I understand it, that’s the direct opposite of what these people believe. In other words, the more you dilute your original substance, the more dangerous- and, eventually, lethal- it becomes. Therefore, by the same logic, the fewer pollutants we put into the air-in other words we ‘dilute ‘them with excessive amounts of air in relation to pollutants – the worse it becomes. Therefore the best way to decrease pollution is to increase it. I think that’s theway it works.

  12. The remedy to be dumped into the oceans is CM potency. You know what that means? It is dilution to 1 part in 10^200000. After 10^24 there are no molecules left, then they dilute it, by a factor of 10, another 199,976 times. (Luckily, there is a machine that does this, succussing as it goes along). It is quite a challenge trying to understand this number – the volume of the Universe, for example, is 10^80 litres. It’s not even witchcraft!

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    • MORE -much more concerned about dumping of particulates of deadly toxic pharma drugs in our water!!! RESEARCH for once! Many scientists are very concerned about that tests are revealing. At least those homeo goofs are not harming our water!

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  13. here’s the problem that we tend to ignore: when a person is sick, they aren’t better until they -think- they are better. you could be entirely cured of cancer, but if you -think- you still have cancer, you will react like you still have cancer. that’s why woo should be taken more seriously. then you won’t have dipshits like this running around saying how their method is so much better because it’s natural. the majority of the planet takes the spiritual aspect of healing extremely seriously. and if they think they’re sick, even if they’re fine, they’re going to want a cure. if a doctor tells them, “you seem a little out of balance still. here, take this.” and give them a sugar pill to take for a week, they’ll feel better.

    i’m really trying to reach a point, but i don’t know if i’m making it well. the spiritual aspect of healing is just as, if not more important than the physical. if we took that notion more seriously, homeopaths wouldn’t be taken seriously at all.

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    • And indeed, MANY critics of homeopathy say that the ONLY thing they have going for them is the ‘care and attention’ aspect, plus the placebo effect. There must be quite a few fans of homeopathy who believe in it despite the fact that they know it’s nonsense.Just as tests have shown that many people believe some have Magic Powers, even though they’ve been revealed to be standard medical tricks that have been performed. In some cases the magicians have said ‘Look,I have no special powers,I just did some tricks’, and the believers have replied ‘Yes but nonetheless I think you do have powers, it’s just that you don’t realize it’. In other words, homeopathy is essentially a religion, and as with religionists it’s a waste of time trying to argue logically with them, since their belief isn’t based on logic in the first place. The most important thing is to stop them from having any power and respectability.

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  14. I guess that Leuticum is a typo for Lueticum (from Lues). But Leuticum is a common misspeling among the homoeopaths is Google will tell you.

    Technically Leuticum should be derived from Leut – a Dutch word for fun, merrymaking, mirth.

    But this is undiluted mirth, so its not the common Leuticum 200C, but the original tincture, made by laughing out loud with a lot of people. LOL- ALOP.

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  16. Does anyone else find it odd that the homeopaths are trying to put a ton of medicine in the ocean, instead of as small an amount as possible? I thought the idea of homeopathy was that the more diluted the active ingredient, the more potent the “medication”…

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    • Ryan Lamb said:

      Does anyone else find it odd that the homeopaths are trying to put a ton of medicine in the ocean, instead of as small an amount as possible? I thought the idea of homeopathy was that the more diluted the active ingredient, the more potent the “medication”…

      No, I don’t find it in the slightest bit odd. You weren’t expecting consistency and logic from homeopaths by any chance, were you?

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  17. A point I made earler. These fools are meddling in a dangerous area. They have to be STOPPED before all the Oceans all explode and like that stuff. Bunging it down the bog is better because it’ll only blow a homeopath’s arse off.

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  23. Assuming homeopathy works (which I don’t) won’t dumping homeopathic preparations into the sea increase the amount of the active ingredient (whatever it is) in sea water thereby making it less potent?

    And how will they do the shaking and magic whacking bit?

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  24. so rather than buy a homoeopathic “remedy” you can speak the name into a glass of water? hasn’t she just put the entire Homoeopathy business model out of business???

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  25. I studied Homoeopathy. Yes it is mostly bullshit, but its true that ‘like cures like’ and small doses of something can have opposite effects to crude doses. But efficacy is yet to be proven.

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  27. You can call homapaths stupid but there has been study done on mind belief and with mind belief you have a 30-50% increase in your median life with treatment for cancer. This info was at the Ian Gawler site in Australia. And I do believe in Mind belief. What they are saying for ebola or according to the science experiment on mind belief
    they might have a 30 – 50% improvement on someone’s life. To me it makes sense and worth a try. And maybe you non-believers can take note of your negativity as it doesn’t help me as I live with an aggressive cancer.
    With medical science and mind belief I’m keeping the disease at bay.

    This is scientifically proven and I’m in excellent care by exceptional Doctors who encourage my meditation and mind belief as they don’t know how to stop my cancer.

    I do believe they should abide by the rules of the authorities.

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    • You may well be keeping your cancer at bay with medical science and what you refer to, rather oddly, as ‘mind belief’. I wish you nothing but good in this respect. But I notice that you have chosen to put your treatment in the hands of proper doctors, not – entirely at any rate – in the hands of homeopaths. It’s just that, should you recover-an outcome I devoutly wish for – I rather feel that you may choose to accord the silly pseudoscience of homeopathy more credit than it deserves. And thus would the foolishness spread outwards.

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  29. She endorses Leuticum and has not ‘conflict of interests’ statement?! I a proper scientist did this, they would seriously risk their career.

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    • Check the silly woman out on the Web. It’s no joke. She’s highly respected in Quackworld. It’s easy to laugh at these people – and so I do – but Big Quacka has a lot of power and money. Prince Charles has stopped a lot of interesting buildings being put up because of his reactionary ideas, about architecture, and his belief in homeopathic mumbo jumbo gives those beliefs an equally pernicious status.

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  31. This has to be some sort of joke. Why should one pay for homeopathic medicine if talking to a glass of water does the trick? Unless peak stupid also means that this person just killed the entire quackery industry.

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  33. It also goes against the general idea of homeopathy that te more diluted the solution is the more potent it becomes. If so, why is she telling more people to do it if it’s going to make the “medicine” eem weaker?!
    Idiots.

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  34. And no official medical or homeopathic organisations will call this stupid!
    And of course no one is willing to explain why this is stupid too.
    For homeopaths nothing is so stupid that it is straight impossible!

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    • I notice that this ‘healing process’ was just a one-day offer. Is there any evidence the Oceans were healed? Or are these idiots going to blame the ‘negative energy’ of the non-believers?

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  38. One of the most “successful” homeopaths in the city I live in, once wondered aloud, in all seriousness, if we would all live longer if we “potentised” the bark of the Sequoia tree! I am serious!

    I have heard a homeopath practitioner say that it is perhaps enough to drink the water in which lentils are boiled to get enough proteins. (In India lentils is the main source of proteins for many people) “Perhaps the proteins are in there in a potentised form”

    I have also heard an admirer of and theoretician (!!!???) about Homeopathy say that if the body needs iron, it will manufacture it.

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  39. Homeopathic remedies are classed as medicines in the EU and some other countries. Unused medicines should be taken to a pharmacy who can dispose of them properly.

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  40. It is worth pointing out that Da Silva-Hill attended the “College” of Practical Homeopathy. To an outsider, CPH appears to be more eccentric than other homeopathic “colleges”. CPH did at one point dish out remedies made on a radionic remedy maker.

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    • I heard a few years ago-I think I may have mentioned this in an earlier post- that in Japan there are ‘Colleges’ that hand out degrees in ‘Micro-dilution’. A Tap. A white lab coat. Some tubes. An idiot student…..COLLEGE!!!!
      I’m cooking something that I diluted at the moment. I call it ‘soup’. If I ‘micro-diluted’ it I could probably feed Rotherham. Or indeed all the known Universes. But I’m hungry so fuck it. I’ll do that over the the weekend. I’m a busy man.

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  41. This is really a very bad idea. I believe in homeopathy, I know this will have some effect, but I fear that it will not be a healing effect but just the opposite. Our oceans are not sick. We are sick. By putting a medicine into water without the requirement, we will just create more sickness in the water, which will then pass on to us by eating sea animals. Another very important risk is that from now on any water on planet can carry the energy of syphillinum, and we may never be able to get a truly clean water to make new homeopathic remedies. Because you can not filter the energy, only particles can be filtered. A very dangereous experiment. DONT DO IT. If you do, I assure you, dont know anything about homeopathy.

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  42. Who did the detailed interview with the oceans and prescribed the the individualised ‘remedy’? Did the oceans have freedom of choice on which treatment they wanted?

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  43. Well, going by the logic of homeopathy, they’d kill the oceans by the “overdose”: the drug is going to get super-diluted, and by their own clumsy logic, that’s simply going to raise the potency so much that it’d amount to murdering all the lifeforms 😉

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  44. I’ve only just caught up with this and I’m worried as we are planning a beach holiday in January. Will it be safe to swim by that time or will the ocean be full of homeopathic remedies that have become incredibly potent? The only thing that comforts me is that the waves crashing against rocks may not be be truly ‘succussing’ the solution so they may not work at all……..BTW I’m surprised the fount of homeopathic knowledge – Larry J Wingnut has not entered the fray on this one

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  45. Question on homeopathy?
    1. In its earliest days were potions all in liquid form?
    2. If so when did sugar pill wetting come into practice?

    If the answer to 1. is yes, then who determined the “efficacy” of a potion would carry over to a solid form. Maybe the homeopaths have erred and are selling useless potions, even by their own standards, let alone ours.

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  46. I agree – throwing homeopathy into the ocean is strange. However, be aware that homeopathy does attract wakos, largely at the annoyance at other homeopaths, since it’s an emerging medicine easily tainted they give the rest a bad rep. I think you should also consider a few other things before condemning homeopathy. Before you get all ad hominem on me, should you be interested, I believe some homeopathy works, but not all of it. But then, the effectiveness of it comes down to the intelligence of the homeopath, much like any shit doctor can’t make you better, and there are plenty of them.

    So here are the things you should consider:

    – I recently visited my GP in the UK, and he prescribed me two forms of something called “Arnica”. One was a cream, the other was homeopathic. I went home and looked it up. Turns out Arnica in homeopathic form passed a fully blown double blind clinical trial, and GPs are allowed to prescribe it. So scientifically, you must also accept that fact. Who’s the idiot now?

    – 85% of the US population are religious and 75% of the UK are religious. So wait a sec, we all condemn homeopathy because of lack of “scientific evidence” (albeit tests run by large pharmaceutical corps against it) and then go home and pray to something floating above a cloud hoping I’ll get into heaven? And you call homeopaths idiots? Please.

    – A significant % of french doctors are trained in homeopathy along with their standard training, why? Because they agree with it.

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    • 1. Trying to differentiate between the ‘wackos’ and the ‘genuine’ Homeopaths reminds me of the attempts to set up a regulatory body for psychics and mediums, so that the ‘genuine’ ones can be weeded out.
      2.Why does ‘some’ Homeopathy work? If ‘some’, why not ‘all’?
      3.Of course there are doctors who are incompetent. But proven, tested Medicine is what doctors work with. The competence or otherwise of the doctor is a separate issue. Homeopathy on the other hand is nonsense, therefore the quality of the doctor administering it is irrelevant.
      4.Please provide details of the double-blind tests for Arnica.
      5.The Religion point is irrelevant.The silliness of Religion of Religion does not magically validate the silliness of Homeopathy.
      6.Once again we have the hinted presence of the big pharmaceutical companies hovering in the background. In fact so-called ‘alternative’ medicine is a huge industry with vast profits being made. That’s because of al the gullibles, naïfs, and Magical Thinkers out there. Boots is hardly a small company, and they sell tons of this stuff.
      7.The fact that French doctors waste 2 years of their time studying this stuff is irrelevant. If it’s nonsense it’s still nonsense even if they spend 20 years on it.

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      • Peter Berryman puts up an impressive argument in favour of homoeopathy. From Australia. He argues that infantessimal potency is only part of the homoeopaths arsenal. Like cures like still stands against the skeptic

      • Since I can’t trace the fellow Berryman’s ‘impressive’ defence of Homeopathy,I’m unable to comment on it. Although I note that you think that since it comes from Australia it must be true. I can only imagine that by ‘infantessimal’ you mean ‘infinitesimal’. Although I suspect your word may be truer than you realized. You seem-like all Homeopaths-to have completely misunderstood the ‘like cures like’ argument.
        And since you claim to have studied Homeopathy for a considerable time, and have concluded that indeed most of it is bullshit, perhaps you could explain which bits aren’t? Since it’s all constructed on a foundation of blancmange and oofle dust, how is any of it valid? And if some of it is, why not the rest?

      • If you go back to how Samuel Hahnemann came up with his theories, he found that quinine produces the same symptoms as malaria. And so quinine (or cinchona bark?) appeared to cure malaria. I had Peter as a lecturer. His article is found under ATMS. Australian traditional medicine society.

      • Wow. I just checked the ‘Modalities’ offered by this organization. They really go for it don’t they ! Didn’t find Reiki in there though. Maybe even they consider that one just too silly.

      • I’m not sure quite what the point of your comment is, so i’m just going to put it down to you not actually having one, for whatever reason; most likely a lack of rational cognitive function.

        All your points raised are just rhetoric exhorts that you think make you sound smart, I can tell by reading it, however, that you’re quite the opposite. Just because it makes me feel good and I know it’s unfair to your missing argument,but, I’m going to say this: I can tell you’re the kind of guy who joins the “I f*cking love science” facebook page, and thinks he’s a man of rigorous theory. Trust me “Barry”, you’re not. You really are not.

        I can say this because I’m a university student at a world top 10 university, I’ve backpacked to remote places in the world, and I’m a successful entrepreneur, and a supporter of homeopathy. Naturally, I have a better perspective on life. In Lehman’s terms, I’m just better than you. It’s something you’ll just have to accept.

        Why is this relevant? My generation and the students around me are pioneering and starting to uncover the financial greed and wrong doings surrounding 21st century mainstream medicine, we’re the leaders, we start the protests and we are the new voice. It’s why things like feminism and gender equality exists nowadays.

        You Barry, and your bigoted taxi driver rants, you are not listened too, it’s just a fact. Nobody cares about you or your views (except perhaps your fat wife), but luckily for us, soon you will die out and the only thing you’re worth (your vote) will die with it.

        Now that’s the conclusion of the harsh truth, I hope you know that no matter what you try to do to ‘end the wackos’ – you’re voice just won’t be heard above ours. That, barry, is the greatest fact of the century.

        I’m going to throw some rhetoric back at you now. I hope you are made to feel to inferior because of it.

        Please show me how mainstream medicine ‘always works’ – I’m fascinated that people think having a fever requires medication to lower a fever. Do you know why we have fevers poor Barry? It kills off the bugs, reduce the fever, and they do not die, and we’re ill for longer. This is just one example of mainstream pointless medication and thus, your premise regarding not all homeopathy working fails.

        The “sillyness” of religion has everything to do with the “sillyness” of homeopathy, you utter idiot. What proof would you require for a god? The same thing is true of homeopathy, except that same type of criteria exists. “What criteria is that?” asks barry, well barry, the type where you witness something working…

        “Why does it not work all the time?”, questions Barry. Well Barry, because rather than treating symptoms, homeopathy treats causes. Since we all differ, the right homeopathic treatment needs to be prescribed. This is my point about how a shit homeopath would cause this discrepancy. I hope this clears this up for you.

        In regard to the arnica trial, luckily, people like myself (who can programme the PHP of the wordpress comment form you’re typing into) invented something called search engines. Perhaps you could start there barry dear boy.

        I think that about sums it up.

        So next time you want to have a chat down the pub about these homeopathic ‘wackos’, just think, a new and better world is being created while your drink that pint. Furthermore, consider this; does anybody of any intelligence actually give a shit about me?

      • Blimey.He went off on one there didn’t he? I think the cleverest thing he did was when he almost spelt me name right.
        I shan’t even bother to answer his ‘points’. I’ll just observe how obvious it is that the reason we have professional comedy writers is that most of the people who think they can do it –well- can’t. That wasn’t even a very good rant.

  47. @ Gavin Costin

    Theory is too strong a word for Hahnemann’s idea. And the implication you make that homeopathy had anything to do with the discovery of quinine’s action on malaria is wrong. That like cures like is demonstrably wrong, Hahnemann himself noticed that which is why he further invented the dilution process and then rationalised it. The whole idea of taking something that might or might not be active and then throwing it away is risible which is why homeopathy has continued to exist only by the campaigns of misinformation.

    Reply

    • Could be hearsay but I heard that mainstream medicine recognises that small potencies can have an opposite effect.

      According to Hahnemann, he started reducing the potencies to cause less disturbance. He claimed that crude potencies produced unnecessary side effects. AND that (unbelievably) lower dosage increased the potency.

      A simple example of like cures like is the consumption of coffee to alleviate stress. That’s what homoeopaths claim anyway.

      Reply

      • I just have a problem with you guys dismissing ‘ like cures like ‘. I stand by my comment that homoeopathy is mostly bullshit. The placebo effect involved in alternative medicine in general is very significant indeed.

      • I always on these occasions refer people to-among others- the ‘Skeptics’ Dictionary for a more comprehensively argued explanation, in this case of the erroneous understanding of the ‘like cures like’ idea.
        And the fact that your other argument now seems to involve the placebo effect suggests to me that you’re skating very close to an admission that, indeed, there is nothing to Homeopathy, it’s just that people think there is. Which is it? As to your standing by your belief that Homeopathy is mostly bullshit -well you can stand there as long as you like. But I still don’t understand which parts are bullshit and which not. Surely that which makes some of it bullshit renders the rest of it bullshit as well, since it all shares the same basis.

      • I agree that dilution to the degree of one drop in the pacific ocean is ridiculous. On the other hand, I seek an explanation of how quinine could cure malaria by any other mechanism than ‘like cures like’. Perhaps you can educate me. And our audience.

      • Why do you think that putting one drop of magic potion in the Pacific Ocean is a ridiculous idea? It’s the kind of thinking that the whole of Homeopathy is based on. In fact that’s a tiny dilution compared to the 100C that’s regularly recommended, which would mean there would be one molecule of the original substance in all the water in the known universe.As I understand it, once you go past a dilution of 6C or so, there’s no discernible trace of the original substance left .But then, as we’re often rather sneeringly told, these things aren’t measurable by our known Science, but just work ‘somehow’.

      • Disturbance? Well yes, he was poisoning people. So like didn’t cure like.

        Homeopaths love confusing the two parts of placebo. People get better with no intervention at all. This is very common in the majority of disease states that homeopaths love to treat like common colds. This is why controls are used in clinical trials. Now a very much more minor effect is found when people who receive overt treatment get better just because the treatment is overt. This very small effect is commonly termed the placebo effect. Homeopaths refer to the placebo effect, which incidentally requires neither a homeopath or their magic water but quote figures for a placebo. Just the usual misleading information from homeopaths.

      • Clinical trials were used by homeopaths 200 yrs ago. That’s what is involved in the ‘proving’ of a remedy.

        On the other hand, mainstream medicine back then involved irrational cures like bloodletting, so doing nothing was a more curative method.

        I am not a homoeopath, I just did a diploma way back.

        Like many supernatural claims e.g. ghosts, UFO’s etc homoeopathy has a vast amount of anecdotal evidence, but a Nobel prize is up for anybody that can prove it.

        Having said that, I have met people personally who have had spectacular cures. And negative reactions.

      • Yes, the laughable claim that homeopaths used clinical trials is often made, they didn’t. Proving has nothing in common with a clinical trial and is just a magic incantation. Our illustrious host once proposed a test of proving, as far as I know, no homeopath ever took him up on the challenge.
        http://www.quackometer.net/blog/2007/12/simple-challenge-to-homeopaths.html

        By the way, you may have seen people get better, but to call that a cure implies a human agency. Nobody has been shown to be cured of a non self limiting condition by homeopathy.

      • I don’t believe for one second that Homeopaths did what we would recognize as proper clinical trials 200 years ago . Apart from the fact that this tripe wasn’t even invented until 50 or so years later than that. A sensible person might think you were making this up as you go along. What would be the chances of that?
        As to Hahnemann’s worries about what was done in the name of medicine in his day-well if you read the Skeptics’ Dictionary entry on Homeopathy I think you’ll find they’re quite fair and generous to him in that respect. Watch Dara O’ Briain’s Youtube routine on Homeopathy. As he says, scientists don’t know everything. They don’t claim to. But that doesn’t give people the right to plug the gaps with any passing fairy story that takes their fancy.
        As to your belief that the person who can prove that Homeopathy works will get the Nobel Prize – I should bloody well hope so. He’ll probably find himself standing on the same platform as the people who discovered pixies and unicorns, and invented the Perpetual Motion Machine.

      • Uhh…if you call “clinical trials” inducing sickness in someone with a toxic substance, and then “curing” them with nearly immeasurable amounts of the same substance…or in other words, people got better because the homeopathic “clinician” stopped poisoning them!

      • We’ll leave aside what Homeopaths ‘claim’. They claim all sorts of nonsense. That’s what we’re arguing about.
        But at least you said something we can agree on, i.e. that it is unbelievable that a solution becomes more potent the more you dilute it.
        Still waiting for the examples I asked for.

      • The trials wouldn’t have been double blind and randomized but I was told that homoeopaths were the first to test out medicines on groups of people.

        Hahnemann was ahead of his time in regard to guarding against bacteria, and so advised people to wash their hands before surgery and childbirth.

        The principle of like cures like is used by mainstream medicine today. I already gave the example of quinine. And in herbal medicine for many centuries before Hahnemann.

        Homo’s refer to mainstream medicine as allopathy, meaning they give for example antiinflammatories for gout.

        Philosophically this approach doesn’t respect that the body is trying to throw off the disease, or at least compensate for it.

        The real cause of gout is probably a persons diet and lifestyle. Too much rich food, but it could also be a psychological cause which allopaths also tend to overlook.

        There is something to be said for a wholistic approach to medicine, rather than a rational but narrow minded one.

        I’ll try and find some examples of medicines which have the opposite effect in smaller doses. I heard that there are articles about this in respected medical journals.

        And more examples of like cures like in traditional and modern medicine.

      • You keep saying ‘I was told’. I also ‘was told’ stuff, such as if I left a tooth under my pillow, the fairies would leave me sixpence. Or that black people and women are inferior. Or that the Daily Mail is a newspaper. As I grew older and acquired greater means of rational thought, I abandoned such of these ideas as I’d taken on board in the first place. Just because you’re ‘told’ something doesn’t mean you have to agree to let your critical faculties flutter out the window like a daft butterfly.
        You still seem incapable of understanding your misunderstanding of the phrase ‘like cures like’..It is scientifically meaningless. It’s gibberish.
        As to the hand-washing thing- I have no idea who was the first to realize that this was a good idea. Whoever it was -well done. The difference between this and Homeopathy however is that one can be proven to be a good idea, whereas the other can not be proven to be anything other than a fairy tale. You’ve had 150 years to provide indisputable evidence. Or as you put it, 200 years. Maybe in Homeopathyland time, like Science, means something different. I don’t know. A belief system that just makes things up as it goes along is very difficult to argue with.

      • I’m loving your spelling by the way. Never seen it spelt ‘wholistic’,but like the American ‘chaise lounge’ for ‘chaise longue’,it kind of ends up meaning what was intended but in a completely accidental, yet nonetheless delightful, way.

      • So Hahnemann, although having no knowledge of bacteria was the first to recommend washing hands before childbirth and surgery was he? That’s a new one to me.

        Homeopaths use the word allopathy to try and discredit medicine. They are following Hahnemann in this who invented the silly word for exactly that purpose. You try to use it in exactly that way later in your post.

        Modern medicine does not use the principle of like cures like. That any drug produces similar symptoms to a disease is of absolutely no use in deciding on treatment. You can induce the feverish symptoms of malaria with many things, but nobody but an idiot would treat malaria with for example, endotoxins.

        Modern medicine has been using a holistic approach to disease for a very long time but if you have a dangerous infection the priority is finding an antibiotic to which the bacteria is sensitive. Enquiries about the lifestyle of the patient can come later.

        But training people to believe in nonsensical concepts such as like cures like and washing away any possibly active material means that their ability to understand logic, evidence, science and medicine is severely truncated. Their ability to understand that dropping water into the ocean will not do anything at all is obviously deficient. I suspect that any dissociation from this idea by homeopaths is guided purely by those homeopaths realising that the general public, ie their market will see how silly is the whole idea. But this is from a group that will sell you such nostrums as diluted and succussed black holes, dolphin song and dog faeces.

      • Gotta do something boy.You keep evading the questions. Although I can see why you do that, given Homeopathy’s innate foolishness.

      • It’s a wonder your spelling is so good with one hand on your shaft 😉 but seriously, there is obviously such thing as ‘like cures like’ or the ‘the law of similars’ because it is routinely observed. Nobody knows why it works. There are only theories.

        One of the spectacular cures I heard about was with Graphites used to treat eczema.

        To my knowledge, mainstream medicine doesn’t actually have a true cure for eczema and many other diseases like gout. All they do is suppress the symptoms.

        For acid reflux I was given a drug that simply switches off the messages from the brain for acid production.

        Obviously this approach doesn’t achieve anything whatsoever, apart from dividends for shareholders of Glaxo. Big Pharma.

        Stick your neck out Barrie and defend the quackery within mainstream medicine.

  48. You actually seem like quite a kind and decent type. No sarcasm, just a genuine comment. But I hate to say that I was waiting for, and dreading, the ‘Big Pharma’ phrase. But there you are. You used it. So excuse me if in future I refer to ‘Big Quacka’.
    Once again ,I refer you to the Skeptics’ Dictionary ‘Homeopathy’ article, which deals with the so=called ‘law of similars’ and other mystical nonsense.
    If you refuse to read it, and then come back to me with your pbjections, then that’s up to you. I suppose you’re just stuck in your Homeopathy religion-and religion is what I take it to be-and that’s why, like any follower of religion, you’re immune to logic..
    I most certainly will never stick my neck out and defend any kind of quackery in whatever field.If there are mistakes made, or lies told, in mainstream medicine then there is a whole system of checks and balances and legal punishments to deal with this. Homeopathy on the other hand is an edifice entirely constructed on quackery,-a system of belief that is based on the weasel word ‘somehow’. ‘Somehow’ is not good enough for Science. Science is based on reason. Homeopathy is based on faith. It’sa religion.p assing itself off as Science.

    Reply

    • Interesting conversation Barrie. Yes I totally get that religious people are immune to logic. And homo’s believe in some of the most ridiculous ideas known to man. Up there with Scientology and Mormonism. I heard of one remedy made by placing an open homo bottle on a seat in a movie theatre, during a screening of the James Cameron’s ‘Titanic’. Creating the remedy ‘Titanicum’ lol.

      I read that article by Peter Berryman recently, and just thought he made a profound point that homo’s could quite happily continue their practice with only crude doses. Like the ‘X’s’ rather than ‘C’s’ and ‘M”s

      The infinitesimal doses used by homo’s is the usual criticism against them.

      I remember when Peter lectured me and he talked about meta-anaysis of the research conducted, testing homo remedies vs placebo. The jury was still out (in the 90’s) But these days it appears that no convincing evidence of homoeopathy exists.

      I still seek an answer as to why dexamphetamine calms down hyperactive kids. If ‘like cures like’ is false, then what is the mechanism.

      I am also left with the mystery of how homo remedies DID work in anecdotal cases I have been close to. Such as a woman in my class that self diagnosed herself ‘Rhus-tox’ for crippling arthritis with an apparent cure.

      And yes I appreciate the power of placebo.

      I read the article against homo in rationalwiki. Very comprehensive. Mentions that ‘like cures like’ was believed in ancient Greece.

      Another interesting point is that many modern medicines are used today without anybody knowing HOW they work.

      Gold injections are used today by doctors. And ‘Aurum’ is a common remedy used by homo’s. The layman would think gold is useless medicinally.

      Reply

      • Hi Gavin, don’t bother responding to this idiot anymore, I’ve responded to his original comment that will make him contemplate his worthless life.

      • Heard this argument long ago, that Homoeopathy is difficult to test because the same disease can’t be treated with same remedy. No point giving 100 diabetes patients the same remedy, but perhaps you can with acute cases like Arnica for bruises.

        Famous homo, Rajan Sankaran talks alot about this. Symptoms are just superficial indications of what is going on inside. And important point about mainstream medicine i.e. they normally don’t provide a true cure for anything. They normally just suppress the symptoms. Killing viruses and bacteria in a patient does nothing to treat the susceptibility patients have to a repeat infection.

        To be fair, homoeopaths can still be put to the test by allowing them to indeed use DIFFERENT remedies for 100+ diabetes patients, or whatever homo medicines are indicated. I’m not aware that such a study has ever been carried out. Not on an adequate scale anyway.

        Hahnemann had better survival rates in his groups, but mainstream medicine at the time was a joke.

      • Quite right about antibiotics and further infection but homeopathy hasn’t even been shown to stop the infection let alone prevent future infections.

        Arnica has long amused me, presumably ‘proving’ C30 Arnica causes bruising.

        Actually trials testing individualised treatments have been carried out. A recent meta study of such trials actually showed very little effect but the study itself has been heavily criticised. But this misses the point, it is up to homeopaths to provide evidence to back their claims, not the reverse.

      • You make some good points Acleron. And you obviously know what you are talking about.

        Yes I wonder how they proved Arnica lol spontaneous bruising all over the body ?

        And I wonder how Arnica cream gained such respect, if it is entirely placebo.

        But then I also wonder how Mormonism has so many followers. And even a presidential candidate.

      • The comparisons of the blind unevidenced beliefs in homeopathy and religion are legion.

        How does snake oil get sold? Easy, it is by supplying misinformation to the buyer. Claims that X is great sells the product, the whole advertising industry relies on that simple observation. Once it sells then the claim is made that there must be something in it otherwise it will not sell. History is littered with examples of now discredited products and ideas that have been popular. That is why evidence is demanded for these claims. Homeopaths realise that they require this evidence so they make false claims that evidence is available. One infamous homeopath even labels her advertising as Evidence Based Homeopathy. This is purely a false advertising claim. Homeopaths put on laboratory coats to claim they are doing research. They write science looking articles in magazines, dressed up to look like scientific journals and then claim all this nonsense is scientific research. It isn’t. It all fails on one scientific principle. They do not follow the evidence. Because they believe or say they believe in a particular end point they ignore any data that contradicts their belief. The scientific method was developed to avoid that pitfall as much as possible. Scientific researchers are well aware of the bias inherent in selecting data. Much effort is taken to avoid this trap. No homeopath shows any awareness that this problem even exists.

      • @davis interesting article, starts of claiming that a group has found 44,000 to 100,000 deaths are caused by medical error, which seems a rather large range. Then later it is stated that the same group are saying 7,000 deaths a year from medical error.

        As you cited this perhaps you could take a stab at explaining what is going on?

  49. Blimey. That’s impressive is that. Could Dr O’HeeHee be persuaded to slip me a portion as well? How does it work? Do I pay him or does he pay me? And how do I know when I’m VHF Negative?

    Reply

  50. I use homeopathy for all my treatments since becoming tired of either getting prescribed steroids or antibiotics for literally everything.

    One doctor even suggested I spray a steroid cream up my nose after it had been seriously broken, over and above corrective surgery because he thought a steroid cream would align bone. Now that’s just plain stupid, but one idiotic doctors actions don’t invalidate an entire method of medicine.

    The same is true of the Homeopath who wants to save oceans or whatever. Most homeopaths are incredibly intelligent people trained in human anatomy, physiology etc. The difference is that we live in a world where everything has to be ‘FDA Approved’ and the crazy world of paperwork.

    Fact is, you’re just naive and quite frankly stupid if you think this industry isn’t about money. As a dual biology and chemistry student at University, this is unbelievably clear. Homeopathy makes incredible sense to lots of young budding biologists who are data and evidence driven. Fact is though, most of the modern science is also based on tons of guess work and BS, and we still roll it out to the general public who lap it up as fact. The truth is that most of this is changing everyday, and most modern medicine is severely defunct.

    The reason why alternative medicine has a bad rep is because it’s cheap. Pharmaceutical giants get paid to produce quantities of medicines and if we all turn to homeopathy, tis not good for stakeholders is it? If you look up who runs the ‘tests’ on alternative medicine, you might be in for a shock…You get the idea.

    Here’s a good analogy for you, a friend and I, two pre-med students both started losing our hair recently, and we looked up what treatments are prescribed. Turns out there are a couple of ‘FDA’ approved treatments, which have side effects, and just so happen to be the most expensive treatments money can buy. We were told that all other treatments were just based on anecdotal evidence and wouldn’t help our hair loss. But there was such a huge amount of evidence online and elsewhere, it just couldn’t be ignored. My friend didn’t want to listen, so he turned to only approved treatments, whereas I put myself on a herbal supplements (that have similar actions to FDA treatments). A year on, and I have totally stopped my male pattern baldness and have actually reversed it. My friend is bald now.

    As much as I’m aware that some people are stuck in their ways and will call me an idiot for using homeopathy, you’re entitled to your opinion but a simple fact remains. The future doctors of the world such as myself are indeed challenging the modern mainstream money culture. As we enter a world less and less antiquated, a world where every other man is a feminist, where people can sign petitions and call out huge companies, we are obsessed with seeking out what is right. Future doctors are finding out more about Homeopathy and we are accepting it. So whatever your views, homeopathy will become a large part of your future whether you like it or not.

    Reply

    • O.K, this whole “Big Pharma” thing is completely irrelevant. Does Big Pharma control control the industry with their evil money grubbing machinations? Sure. Do they make big profits? Yep. Are 110% their medicines 100% efficacious? No. Are they free from side effects…nope. Are there cheaper and possibly safer alternatives to many pharmaceuticals out there for some conditions, like diet, exercise, and even some herbs and vitamins? Yes. Does this have anything to do with whether homeopathy works? Wait for it…..NO! No, no and …no it does not. It’s completely, and utterly beside the point.

      Bringing up “Big Pharma” and it’s list of evils is a total red herring that has nothing to do with anything. Homeopathy can either be proven to work scientifically or it cannot,
      End of story.

      Reply

    • Hello.
      A new player enters the fray.
      A ‘Doctor’ no less.
      Welcome sir.
      Drop yer comedy trousers and join the rest of the clowns over there.
      NEXT.

      Reply

      • http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/04/15/antidepressants-decreased-my-sex-drive_n_7024738.html
        These and millions of others world wide don’t feel like even dropping their shorts. LOL Well, not really funny, but it shows the hollow reasoning of those who blindly follow the established med standard to be ‘orthodox.’

        Drugs are a far,far bigger and far more dangerous issue than as they call them ‘sugar pills!!! They should give equal time to those great and grave dangers of pharma drugs. I have lost friends over the years to these very deadly chemical concoctions or drugs.

      • That’s why I put it in inverteds.
        I’ll match your 10.
        BUT-Danger lies ahead. We know that there ARE doctors who believe in this.

      • Balls.
        They’re not ‘so-called’ sugar pills.
        They ARE sugar pills.
        They should NOT give equal time to homeopathic wingwang water and real medicine.
        If you truly ARE a doctor, you should know this.
        If you are, and truly believe this rubbish,you should be investigated.
        If you’re not-then stop wasting people’s time.

    • Maybe you can-or will-answer the question that the other Woo People like IKZ won’t? I mean you being a ‘Doctor’ and all that there?
      Ahem ….’Why has no homeopath claimed the James Randi 1 million dollars?’
      Thankyou.
      I’m here all week.

      Reply

      • Ask them NOT me I am NOT a homeopath!!! You ignore the med worlds great and very serious issues and killing human beings ‘legally’ with drugs- on a DAILY basis -and surgery; but instead focus on a subject you can ridicule and cajole while ignoring what is truly killing and maiming your fellow human beings. Personality disorder. Diversion from facts and stark reality huh? That says a lot about your personality/character and low self esteem. This subject boosts your endorphins and dopamine masking your deep feelings of inferiority. You now can feel like you are towering over those poor wretches , and their delusions. Oh you are on the side of ‘science’ and are very smart and perceptive.
        Read the psychology on this kind of a personality disorder. I have. You pick on a target an easy subject to refute,but ignore the horrendous deaths for ‘approved’ drugs and surgery cause. MILLIONS- including babies and children -have died from the side effects of pharma drugs and you focus your attention and time on an easy target to cajole. You hide from that fact! You should be totally outraged at these unnecessary sometimes very painful deaths!!!

      • Andy,
        I thought you are against psychic perception? You now accuse me of lying or was it your intuition? I will say it again, and again I am NOT nor ever have been a homeopathic Dr. I am not certified in that profession.
        This is your mind’s way to ignore all the med deaths and maiming and focus on me? You worry I might be a homeopath? You worry about all those deaths huh? NO! You are concerned and obsessed with ‘sugar pills’, etc. You NEED to be overly concerned with really serious matters -not cajoling the H’s or any other profession(you can of course free thought/speech, etc.,but see my point here or is it ADD time?)- about the over 250 deaths per day(just in the US alone that’s twice as many who die in auto accidents!) from pharma drugs. You are not. It doesn’t satisfy your mind/emotions does it? It doesn’t make you feel superior huh?
        You need to self analyze yourself.

  52. Ladies and Gentlemen- I give you ‘Doctor’ H Davies.
    A man I feel who’s just as unlikely, on the evidence so far, to answer the James Randi question as IKZ is. Or Junior, who’s still trying to puzzle out what this strange, foreign-looking word ‘question’ means. By the way – your ‘sheep’ reference somewhat gives the game away.
    But-let’s repeat the question.
    WHY HAS NO HOMEOPATH PROVED THAT HOMEOPATHY WORKS – You still with me?- AND CLAIMED THE EASIEST MILLION EVER?

    Reply

  53. Oh and ‘Doctor’ H Davies- it’s Kool ‘Aid’ not ‘Aide’.
    I point this out lest the clown IKZ tries to patronise you.
    He tried it on me.
    Not a bright man. Picked the wrong bunny.

    Reply

  54. Equally-in turning round ‘Doctor’ Davies’ question on him – I’d like to ask how if, as homeopaths believe, Woowoo Water becomes more potent-even dangerously so – the more you dilute it, the whole world didn’t blow up when a woman some time ago asked like-mindeds to tip their Magic Potions into the sea in order to ‘heal the oceans’? Even if a drop of it were dropped down the toilet you’d think it might demolish the drains and lead to mass evacuation and a hefty fine from the Council.

    Reply

  56. If you do not consider yourself a homeopath huh you certainly tick most of the boxes huh so I think you may be deluding yourself huh.
    Huh.

    Reply

  57. They are your ‘boxes’- not mine!!! huh You continue to ignore the med deaths I see. huh I am correct about you and the others’ psychology. huh Huh

    Reply

  58. Dr. Davis said: “250 deaths per day(just in the US alone that’s twice as many who die in auto accidents!) from pharma drugs.”

    May I ask where this data was obtained? I continue to see data that is all over the map with many saying the opposite. How can a lay person find reliable data when it varies so much?

    Reply

  59. Another thought – I am a chronic pain patient and I have to wonder how many Pharma deaths are suicides of un-treated and under-treated pain patients. The anti-opioid crowd loves to count these unfortunate deaths as overdoses!

    Reply

      • http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2282014

        I just thought I had to stay at that level with articles which point to studies(not done by Null whom I personally dislike) so as not to fly over your head. So as you can see I am moving into med studies which I have been reading and studying since 1963. Far more devastating anyway concerning pharma drugs and the terrible deaths of innocent human beings- even infants and children- you ‘debunkers’ ignore in favor of picking and making fun- like children- at various modalities instead of the ones that we KNOW for sure are deadly and kill, maim and debilitate costing billions, with precious human lives being the focus.

      • But another thing we know for sure is that NO homeopathic ‘drugs’ work in any way at all. Not one. And that’s because they’re made from sugar, water, and Magic Thinking.

      • I’ve said it before.
        I’ll say it again.
        Why are so many homeopaths – and those who pretend they’re not but seem to share the same beliefs – so arrogant and deluded as to think that the rest of us won’t check up on the articles and organisations they recommend to back up their case?
        Like the fellow who recommended the deranged ‘The Truth About Cancer’ film and then admitted he hadn’t even seen it himself?
        Or ‘Dr Davies’ and his recommendation of a site which includes an article by Gary Null, and when picked up on it says he didn’t really mean to seem to back Null as he doesn’t really agree with him.
        What else that he recommended on this site is he going to back away from?
        Organisational fronts for fruitcakes like Medical Voice or Medical Council On Vaccination and their grotesque, hysterical demands that no children should be vaccinated?
        Are there any others on that site than Null he’d like to distance himself from while he has the chance?
        As I said earlier-homeopaths destroy a lot of their own arguments simply by explaining them. It’s the funniest suicide in history.

  60. ‘Dr’ Davies’ comments are leading me to believe that homeopaths – or in his case homeopaths who aren’t homeopaths – are starting to lose track of their own arguments. His latest one being that over-prescribing of what he calls ‘pharma’ drugs is proof that they don’t work. Huh?
    I want to know where ‘Dr’ Davies qualified, and in what field.
    Over-eating of lettuce would not be wise either.
    The clue, ‘Dr’ Davies, is in the word ‘over’.

    Reply

    • I posted I ‘disliked’ Null (he must be one of your fav’ whipping boys huh? he’s yours you can have him ) on a personal level. If he says to consume wholesome food and drink then I agree. I select and collate info on a case by case basis. I said and mean I have researched med studies for several years going back to 1963.
      An associate I collaborate with has one of the largest privately held collection of med studies in the US. If there is an article from an acceptable source that’s factual and based on studies then I carefully search out that article/s and read that. When I click in my subject/s I pick up site/s that mention my subject, I stop look and listen- then I form my own opinion over time unlike you that follows the herd of silly same ol same ol debunkers. Boring.
      That’s one way you do research old chap.There’s ‘spring boards’ all over on sites that can steer one towards a good study, etc.; that’s ok for me -not you, oh I know you are a great scholar tut- tut – sorry old chap. Don’t slum or lower yourself by posting to me any longer.

      There are some things nutty Null has taught I agree with, and others I don’t. Sorry to inform you Bar,’ but it’s an eclectic world out there in research. I look and carefully weigh all sound opinions (even yours if you had one which you don’t). Just poster filler tripe.
      You are trying to divert me with your goofy stupid non thoughtful posts here ,but I always go back to my premise.

      Reply

      • Null a favourite whipping boy? Merely one among, er how many quacks are there?

        You can detect a quack usually by their lack of rationality and their sales technique. You can measure an idiot by the number of idiotic beliefs they hold and with what frequency they spout forth. Gary scores highly, you have some way to go before you reach his rarified level.

    • Dr Davies!
      You are SHAMELESS!
      We TOLD you not to ask US to provide proof of YOUR nonsense!
      And yet you’ve gone and done it!
      You’re AWFUL! You really are!
      And you’ve used the ‘modailities’ word !
      Are you now going to use ‘Wellness’?
      And ‘homeopathic tinctures’?

      Reply

    • By the same token I know lots of people who live in Rotherham and they tell me all the things they see there and it’s equally horrendous.
      Perhaps that makes the whole of Rotherham ‘wrong’ in some way?
      Is Rotherham nothing but a vast conspiracy?
      Does that mean you think it should be replaced with Brigadoon?
      The same way you think Medicine should be replaced with Magic?
      Oh-slightly didactic point-it’s ‘us’ people in that context, not ‘we’.

      Reply

      • I find a lot of debunkers have various shades’ of ADD. Maybe I need to spell it out? Thanx for the English lesson; but you need to get the ‘drug lesson.’
        Will hint. Where do most of the iatrogenic deaths worldwide come from (I will end a sentence with prep. if I want to)? Pharma drugs so why in hades aren’t you posting about it? Why are you hiding from this stark fact of modern evil? Is it your ADD?

  62. Barrie boy!
    You just proved my point! You just want to ‘ridicule’ you have no substance are shallow like a remedy lol You turn from true real concern and compassion (which forms of sociopathy lack) for the precious lives of people that are dying EVERYDAY from pharma drugs as based on stats;- but you love to harp, cry, moan, bitch, ridicule, tease, mock, etc., about nothing really.
    Dan B.

    Reply

    • You’re at the point now where some of your posts are barely intelligible.
      Boy.
      What on Earth does ‘shallow like a remedy’ mean?
      Your own ‘stats’ have already been exposed for the meretricious foolishness they are.
      Sure, I like to ridicule wilful, dangerous idiots. It’s just a crazy thing I have.
      I do NOT harp, cry, moan, bitch, ridicule, tease, mock etc about ‘nothing really’.
      I harp, cry, moan etc about-for instance-gullible, stupid, idiotic people who put others’ children at risk by sending their own, unvaccinated children to school in a completely uncaring way in order to destroy ‘herd immunity’.
      The fact that you consider that ‘nothing really’ says more about you than you’re seemingly incapable of realising.
      Tell me-in the unlikely event you’ll ever answer a straight question-what you think about some of the other people and organisations on these sites you mention.
      Such as Medical Voice and the so-called Medical Council On Vaccination.
      Otherwise I shall assume you’re not interested in serious discourse and I shall revert to my default setting of harping, crying, moaning and all that there in relation to liars, fools, charlatans, scam artists, Magical Thinkers etc.
      It’s the least they deserve.

      Reply

  63. Since ‘Dr’ Davies has invited me not to post to him directly any more, I’ll post generally and to other homeopaths and Wooers.
    I’m fed up with him anyway since he-like so many Woosters-simply will NOT answer a direct question, so I think I reached the limits of my patience.
    I’m quite intrigued however by the fact that although he declares a dislike of the sugar pill seller Gary Null he then tries to have it both ways by claiming that he is in favour of SOME things Null-and how appropriate is THAT surname for a homeopath by the way-says.
    Such as ‘Eat nutritious food’.
    Well blow me down. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
    The fellow Davies also keeps claiming he’s been ‘researching’ this subject since 1963, but never lets us know what his Doctorate is in, or what constitutes his ‘research’.
    I’ve met many men who’ve equally been ‘researching’ titty magazines for about the same kind of time. But all that makes them is ‘wankers’.

    Reply

    • The eat wholesome food along with other comments such as take exercise are just the bait and switch of the quack while they sell you their worthless snake oil.

      I see that Davis also thinks that reading fiction such as Null constitutes ‘research’. If anything it just gives the reader the ability to spout nonsense.

      Reply

  64. See my good Bar; you do have a degree of ADD and sociopathic disorder-don’t know what degree unless I had you take some tests and counseled. That would be an outer space trek for sure! I was correct.

    You don’t really read/think you ruminate based on what you want to as a mind set debunker. Incidentally, I can choose just about any subject set my mind and begin debunking. It’s so damned easy- any fool can do it. EASY. No brain power required.

    Ok, I JUST POSTED Mr. ADD that I pick and chose based on studies I have and am reading and I spend a lot of thought life analyzing each one, etc. I love to do research. All true research has to -by it’s very nature- be eclectic.

    Those sites or any other ones as I ALREADY posted may have some facts or lead me to a good sound study. I don’t care about anything else. Proving their theme is on them not me. I go on. I have a great interest in clinical nutrition(and many other interests/subjects that will help in my view people in some way shape or form) so sites like that when I click come up. I visit then get out when or if I find something of interest. Fishing? Yes, quite so my good man. We just need to bloodily well ‘know’ what is a keeper or what is a toss back. Truth like fish is where you find it and sometimes it has strange bedfellows. It’s like life -it’s research. Fun!

    Example: One subject is hormesis. From this I took a lot of things (but spit seeds out I didn’t need as usual) and combined them with nutritional studies I was doing and will appear in a book I am writing.

    Chill cool out Bar’ enjoy the put on a wife beater T shirt hit the pub and darts my good man and a good UK beer. There are several good ones I love. We’ll spar next week.

    Reply

  65. Well I doubt I shall be talking to ‘Dr’ Davies any more-or ‘sparring’ as he puts it, considering this it seems to be a more amicable friendship than it is-but I shall look on bemusedly while the rest do.
    Why he’s introduced wife beating into all this, Dog only knows. He’s got no evidence for it. But wait-he has no evidence for any of his other delusions either.
    And as to the dart board -well to be honest, the chances of finding one of those in the 2 countries where I divide my time are fairly limited, even if people knew what they were.
    I’m starting to like his bizarre use of language though, partly because it matches his bizarre illogic.
    ‘Truth like fish is where you find it’ is a particular delight, and one I certainly shall employ as often as possible.
    Though to be honest, if you thought you’d found a fish in a hutch it’s more likely to be a rabbit.

    Reply

  66. I’ve just been described by ‘Dr’ Davies of lacking humorous.
    Well maybe- I disagree – but I don’t think I lack intelligent.
    DOH.
    I do wish -again- he’d tell us what his ‘Doctorate’ is in.
    I know he considers himself to be a ‘researcher’, but that seems to be based on the fact that he looks at stuff on the Internet, discards the Science, and believes the nonsense.
    And as to the imaginary ‘book’ he claims he’s going to write- personally, I can’t wait. Although I imagine it’ll have to be self-published.

    Reply

  67. Bar’ my Man,
    I take it back old chap your post shows you are humorous! You may be a medievalist(gee I thought everyone one uses the internet or do you dash to your library like I used to do spending countless hours there when I can now subscribe to med studies on line and the like; get up with the times my good man). You give me quite a laugh.

    Now to be a bit more serous. I am now sending or posting ‘med studies’ so your obsessiveness(maybe a dash mg.of Paxil will arrest if you can survive the side effects lol) can relax about, your fetish Null, etc. ‘Discarding science’-NOT TRUE-NEVER!!! Yes, the book is ‘imaginary’ I am using a ‘ghost’ writer lol

    Gee I was hoping you dividing your time between two countries Afghanistan and Syria would have softened you up just a tad old chap! Add in another country like Somalia that should dissipate your grumpiness.

    Reply

  68. I hope at least some of the anti-vax lunatics at least have the decency to be embarrassed at the situation in Ukraine where at the start of what looks like being a vast polio outbreak many of the stupider parents are not only refusing to have their children vaccinated but are getting doctors to give them forged certificates so their children can go to school and infect the children of more intelligent people.
    The bastards should be jailed, like the Kentucky marriage licence hillbilly.

    Reply

  69. As to your last sentence – I somehow doubt he can.
    Not on previous evidence.
    He can’t even remember what his ‘Dr’ qualification is in.
    Or perhaps-as Boris Johnson said -he’s ‘shy’.

    Reply

    • Acl…’skeptics are accumulating evidence against drugs?’ What the hades-a ill-informed statement. Sheer ignorance! How about just the US FDA,US government? Can’t help if you don’t study(and clearly you do NOT!!!) med news and the literature. You have lost touch because you don’t study like most debunkers.

      Reply

      • Your ignorance of the workings of science is plain to see Your rather puerile insults are rather ineffective but then, that appears to be all that you have.

        Just who do you think is analysing clinical data in the FDA? Homeopaths? Lol no, they are the scientists who by their training are skeptics.

        I have little idea whether you understand anything you read, the evidence so far is that you don’t.

    • More “gibberish.”http://www.drugwatch.com/vioxx/lawsuit/ Does this constitute a “…trial” that “induces sickness… [like in homeopathy ‘trials’?]. Death? They ‘professionally’ rigged the trials!!! Cost them billions. For God’s sake, read, study get off your lazy mind butt and get to work and learn facts, figures stats! Do your homework if you are going to be a good ‘debunker'(an easy mindless occupation)

      Reply

  72. I thought ‘Dr’ Davies had buggered off. So he’s still among us? Blessing us with his refusal to explain how homeopathy ‘works’? Or how things become more powerful, indeed more dangerous, the more they’re diluted?
    I don’t know whether to be impressed by his dogged stupidity, or depressed by h…. Oh well. You get the point.
    My mood in relation to this is not helped by the Russell Miller and Tony Ortega books on Scientology that I’ve just read. Both recommended.
    I keep reading how the followers of these cults are not necessarily stupid, but tend if anything to be more than averagely intelligent.
    A premise that ‘Dr Davies’ insists on trying to prove by his constant intellectual dilution of the various arguments.

    Reply

  73. http://www.drugwatch.com/yaz/side-effects.php Here ya go Barrie same ol same ol Barrie.

    I SAID or clearly POSTED ‘stem cells are the wave of the future’ NOT pharma drugs or homeopathy, etc., will survive stem cells as a treatment of disease conditions, etc. READ man READ. Do some thinking.I advocate and the bulk of my research is stem cells NOT homeopathy or dangerous pharma drugs or any other ‘pathy!’ Research stem cells.

    Reply

  74. ‘Dr’ Davies – you’ve still not told us what your ‘Doctorate’ is in, though that’s not a surprise to any sentient being – I now see that you’ve sunk to the cheap level of abusing those you call ‘debunkers’.
    There are plenty of people like you on the Internet-just look at some of the filthy and rancid and lying and cheap, nasty comments about James Randi. No evidence needed among such people-for them, and you, abuse and vitriol is sufficient it seems.
    I have but four simple questions for you, ‘Dr’ Davies’.
    You’ll have heard at least one of them before, but it seems to have skipped by you, or you have chosen to ignore it.
    But anyway, here goes.
    Ahem.
    1.How does a substance become more potent the more it’s diluted?
    2.How does a substance become more potent the more it’s diluted?
    3.How does a substance become more potent the more it’s diluted?
    And finally
    4.How does a substance become more potent the more it’s diluted?

    Reply

  75. I ACCEPT stem cells-pharma drugs AND homeopathy are going out the window- you are the one who stubbornly(no surprise) refuses to discuss in detail pharma drugs which you defend. I pity those close to you what a pompous stubborn arrogant bore you are.

    Reply

    • Who are supporting pharmaceuticals? Nobody here has made any statement that can be construed to be support for such a diverse group of chemicals, so where did you see this?

      We know the tired, facile technique of ‘Hey, look over there and ignore my fruitloopery’, so give it a rest, you are just pissing into the wind.

      Stem cells have promise but as yet little success. Trying to push them as the answer to everything is at best premature and rather silly.

      Homeopathy has never been in the window, your ignorance is showing.

      Reply

  77. ‘Dr ‘ Davies – the more you refuse to answer a simple question, the more you weaken your-already feeble -case.
    One more chance, and then I leave you behind.
    1.Details of your ‘doctorate’ please.
    In what ?
    At what institution?
    2. How does a substance become stronger by dilution?
    Answer these simple questions, ‘Doctor’, or be exposed as a duplicitous man.

    Reply

    • Thank God for small favors- thank you Baro please do old chap ‘leave me behind ‘ ASAP you- you have destroyed my credibility. My life is in shambles. Your questions were withering with no way to stand up to them. I surrender to your magnificent mind.

      Bless you Baro you have exposed me to the whole world on this scientific prestigious site! I hope your irrefutable documented posts warns the other bang -bang thank you mama posters. The professional world of skeptics will now hold you in high esteem as you have defeated another crack pot.

      Reply

  79. I feel it necessary to point out that the fellow Davies is now starting to claim that ‘some of the greatest work on stem cell research is coming from China’. I think we may be heading towards the’ Territory Of Madness’ here.
    It’s possible – likely, let’s face it – that there may be people out there so fantastically gullible that they will believe him, without demanding evidence from him.
    I’ve requested details of his qualifications -I don’t know by now whether ‘Davies’ and ‘Doctor Davies’ are one and the same or not, and since their/his points are similar I couldn’t care less -also his explanation of how a substance can be made more potent the more it is diluted, as is believed by homeopaths
    He never responds with anything other than sarcasm – I’m pretty sure he thinks of it as humour – but certainly not with facts.
    But this ‘Chinese stem cell ‘ business looks to me a little flaky, to say the least, and I think it should be investigated, if not nipped intellectually in the bud.

    Reply

  80. Bar I see why you linked China to stem cells. My secretary just came in to my office as I was posting so my fault as to distraction! I was really saying Germany as to stem cells and then cut into my trip to China so out of subject/sentence sequence. I am simply ‘visiting’ China to view some new med labs is all. Nothing to do with stem cells and China so my fault Bar.
    But, I will say there is very good stem cell research in some of the universities in China.

    Reply

  81. http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1089/154732804323099190

    Bar,
    The ref. quotes as a list are thus delineated in this med paper for your research check.
    The stem cell studies coming from China Universities and med Clinics are regularly referenced in med journals the world over. In my book I am posting them in footnotes with annotations where appropriate. I do favor thus far stem cell research in Germany; but the Italian scientists and others are engaging in successful breakthroughs too..

    Reply

  84. i couldn’t read all the replies but my thoughts are that every time I drink a glass of water I am drinking Jesus’s piss……in homeopathic levels.

    Reply

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