An advert in my local paper called for people to come into the Wells Chiropractic & Osteopathy Centre for an introductory price of £19. Included in this price was a “complete consultation and results, including the latest high-tech Myovision Scan”.
Chiropractors have been criticised for trying to lure people into lengthy, costly and, importantly, unnecessary treatments. Chiropractic is of limited therapeutic value. It may help a little with lower back pain, but no more than pain killers and exercise. The wilder claims of chiropractic, such as being able to treat childhood ailments, have been shown to be utter nonsense.
So what is a Myovision scan and what function does it provide during an initial chiropractic consultation?
A Myovision device is a handheld scanner that is designed to measure electric activity in skeletal muscles. According to the manufacturer,
The MyoVision Scan takes 90 seconds and is completely safe, painless and non-invasive. The MyoVision sEMG ScanVisions read the voltage that the muscles in your spine naturally emit. These readings look at the level of voltage and the patterns of directionality, which allows your healthcare professional to determine if your spine and nervous system are functioning optimally.
The result is a picture, as shown above, that is supposed to be diagnostic of problems in the spine that the chiropractor can then get to work on.
The Myovision is a type of surface electromyography device. Such devices usually use needles to detect the electrical activity in muscles. There appear to be some genuine uses that such a device can be used in diagnosis certain muscle diseases. However, given chiropractic’s limited utility, why a chiropractor would use such a device is very unclear.
Although electromyography does have a certain applicability within medicine, it looks like Myovision are not aiming at the medical profession, but almost exclusively to chiropractors. Why would they do this if such measurements were of very limited and chiropractic largely ineffective? A recent review of surface electromyography concluded that “there are insufficient data to support its utility for distinguishing between neuropathic and myopathic conditions or for the diagnosis of specific neuromuscular diseases.”
Myovision’s web site talks about how doctors are using their product. Yet, testimonials and blog are exclusively about chiropractic use of the tool. It is a central conceit of chiropractors that they are entitled to use the title ‘doctor’. Yet, they are not medically qualified and their training is derivative of the superstitious beliefs of their founder – a magnetic healer and mystic.
It would appear that the device appeals to chiropractors as it gives a scientific veneer to an unvalidated diagnostic. On the basis of the scan, a customer might be enrolled on a lengthy and expensive course of treatment that is both ineffective and unnecessary, but very profitable to the chiropractor.
The Myovision device would not be the only type of questionable diagnostic procedure undertaken by chiropractors. Many still use X-rays. Such exposures to ionising radiation for the sake of detecting chiropractic’s mythical subluxations would appear to be both unethical and illegal.
Remarkably, it looks like it is common practice for chiropractors in the UK to use some sort of discount incentive and questionable diagnostic procedure to rope customers into ‘wellness’ treatment plans. You will find many examples on the web of chiropractors who have set up consultancies specialising in such ‘practice building’. Groupon is routinely running such introductory discount offers for ‘spinal check-ups’.
Chiropractic is a statutory regulated profession. As such, it would appear remarkable that chiropractors could get away with such practices.
But the regulator, the General Chiropractic Council, is a chocolate teapot. Until recently, it not just ignored the wild and unevidenced claims of the profession, but actively encouraged them. It was only when the British Chiropractic Association unsuccessfully tried to sue Simon Singh after he wrote in the Guardian about their absurd claims they were making that the GGC were forced into action by the hundreds of complaints made to them. They have since spent the last few years desperately trying to find the weasel words that would allow them not to strike off the bulk of their members.
In recent days, the GCC has admitted that they are guilty of ‘systemic failures’ in their ability to protect the public. It is not clear at the moment why they are saying this. This is despite the CHRE, the body charged with overseeing health regulators giving the GCC a clean bill of health.
The failure of the GCC to oversee how chiropractors use questionable diagnostic procedures in order to lure punters into handing over large quantities of cash, is just one more aspect of their utter failure to protect the public.
But if they were to stamp out dodgy practices, I would guess that there would be few chiropractors who could sustain a business. Would a regulator regulate itself out of business? If its only goal was to protect the public then is should and it could. But if it is really only protecting its own existence, then do not expect to see any action here.
“Such devices usually use needles to detect the electrical activity in muscles”……I’ll say they do!: I had one of these after some sciatica attacks, apparently (this was a normal hospital) as standard practice to detect damage to the nerves. I was supposed to have another one, but one session of torture was enough! If the machine mentioned here really does the same job (if it really was a job?) without the pain, more power to its elbow – does it, however? certainly not worth it in the chiro- context!
NCV is nerve conduction velocity test using needles. EMG is electromyogram not needing the use of needles. Surface electodes are used in EMG. So the myovision would be used correctly and is valid in assesing muscle inadequacies/imbalances. The American Medical Association (AMA) has provided a CPT code for billing SEMG, also
contradicting the claim. The American Medical Association has determined that Dynamic Surface EMG is an insurance reimbursable procedure which is
generally accepted in the medical community. Both medical practitioners and doctors of Chiropractic have earned the the designation respectively to their degree of education. There are great minds in both professions just as there may be quack. Same for all professions. Ive been to both and stand by both. What one can do the other can not. Ive seen a lot more doctors working together for the common goal. Healthier patients. Unfortunately there is someone fighting against the greater goal. Chiropractic has succeed for me and many others I know where medical has failed. That doesnt make medicine quackery!!
Not true. There is Surface EMG not using needles and the more accurate form of EMG that does insert fine needles into the muscle being tested. Nerve Conduction See tudy is something else entirely.
The author of this article needs to do their research before making these wacky statements. Chiropractic care would not be legal in 50 states if it was not true science. Peer reviewed randomized clinical trials and outcomes favor chiropractic care and sometimes more than medication. For example, a study performed by an M.D. on the decreasing blood pressure effects and adjusting the atlas stacked against a medication. (Do the research and see for yourself). More people today in 2018 are being referred by many other medical professionals to Chiropractors for a reason.
If challenged about this, I’m wondering if the GCC would use a tactic that it’s resorted to in the past when asked for its view on an unvalidated diagnostic:
Quote
“Members discussed correspondence received from a GP seeking the view of the GCC in respect of the use by a chiropractor of a Vegatest Machine, which apparently has been banned in many parts of the USA by regulatory bodies, after various complaints that it had led to false diagnosis, fraudulent treatment and had in some cases delayed a cancer diagnosis as the symptoms had been misdiagnosed as spurious allergies.
Members AGREED that it would not be appropriate for the GCC to comment on a commercial product.”
http://www.gcc-uk.org/files/link_file/C-020605-Open%20Minutes.pdf (page3)
However, given that newspapers could be considered commercial products, and that the GCC site fiable has never been shy of issuing indignant rebuttals to editors whenever they have published articles that have been critical of chiropractic, it would appear that the GCC is happy to contradict itself when it suits its agenda – something which can only add to the strong suspicion that it is a self-interest group.
These people have double standards. What is more dangerous then pills that cause massive numbers of so called side effects. No one dies going to the chiropractor. If chiropractic caused strokes there would be thousands of them daily. Blood pressure pills for example cause cerebrovascular accidents ,strokes, pulmonary embolisms, cardiac arrest , myocardial infarction , diabetes, tachycardia or fast pounding heart rate, as well as a barrage of other serious and very dangerous and lift threatening side effects. If a chiropractic adjustment had any of these problems associated with it no one would go and yet if the blind sheep led by supposed QUACK WATCHERS WERE ON THEIR TOES THEY WOULD ADVISE YOU OF THE REAL QUACKERY WHICH IS THE ADMINISTRATION OF MOST OF THE massive quantizes of PILLS the innocent victims of such abusive treatment receive. Take blood pressure pills and get dizzy they send you for a dizzy test and put you on some other drug. The adverse affect of this pill on the body accumulates and then more weird symptoms pop up. Go back and get tests more for the symptoms that pop up from taking that pill with the other one that were NEVER tested together and soon you are facing serious complicated health issues and then the cemetery. Science says H = O2 equals H2O . Give 20 people the same drug. One gets swelling of the face mouth lips tongue and throat, the other gets bladder cancer and there are 20 different reactions . This does not meet the criteria of science. You are the real quack and people who listen to you are blind sheep
Good post but the phrase “limited therapeutic value” (not your own, I know) understates the serious dangers of chiropractic manipulation. See, for exaple: http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/726445
if chiropractic was dangerous our malpractice premiums would be outlandish just like those of high risk drivers on the road…..we get the same coverage as a medical doctor at a fifth of the price. end of story.
As usual Andy you find a story and make sweeping conclusions from it. I was offered to distribute the Myovision in the UK 10 years ago, I declined because I did not feel the information provided by the scan, gave you much information about what was going on at deep spinal joint level as opposed to changes in surface temp. I would say most UK chiropractors would agree with that and it is only a very small proportion of chiropractors in the UK who use them. They do give information about asymmetrical muscle spasm and inflammation in surface tissue which cam be used to show patients changes after they have had chiropractic adjustments.
If you have bothered to check the GCC website you would know that they do not set standards or make the rules about x rays in the UK. They state “Your chiropractor will only recommend that an x-ray be taken if there is a VALID CLINICAL REASON for doing so. Like all health professionals, chiropractors must comply with the legislation that governs the use of x-rays – the Ionising Radiation (Medical Exposure) Regulations 2000. I have £30,000 of x ray equipment in my practice, because I resigned from the register I can no longer order x rays,its nothing to do with the GC., I accept that restriction when I resigned from the register because there should be strict regulation on the use of x rays as they have been overused by all professions who use them.Interestingly as I got more experienced, I was taking hardly any x rays.
In addition, (but why let facts get in the way of a good story) in the UK a subluxation is not a valid “clinical reason” for taking an X ray, a few chiropractors were done early on for trying to make the case for it. A subluxation is a term for spinal joint dysfunction also used by medical practitioners to describe hypermobility in a joint. X rays are better for showing pathological changes and not very usefull for showing a loss of joint motion, which could be restricted in its anatomical position.
Andy I have explained all this before to you, somehere in cyberspace. I guess you have forgotten, so I am working on a website with all these explanations for skeptic fundamentalists to check on. By the way, do you have any qualifications in clinical science?
So because a term might be useful and valid in one context it is automatically valid in another? So all joints can move in all dimensions can they? I wonder why evolution made them different shapes and with all those lumps and bumps, ligaments and muscles which restrict ranges of movement? It couldn’t be because of function could it?
We know what vertebrae out of alignment actually look like on x-ray, one hint is a disc hernia. As others have pointed out give the same x-rays or the same patient to different chiropractors for diagnosis and you will not get consistent answers. You may think you have experience but the demonstrable fact that yours differs from other chiropractors should give you pause for thought but I bet you lose not a second of sleep over it.
I am entitled to use Dr as a title and so long as I don’t imply I’m a medical one I can use it to set myself up in all sorts of altmed. I don’t because I care about things like truth and consistency and being able to look at myself in the mirror in the morning. That I might be poorer or less employed as a result is no excuse.
There are other things you can do if you don’t get into med school you know. I found one. You could for eg have qualified as a physiotherapist. At least the ones I know do worry about things like evidence based medicine.
Anyway I’ll trust to my exercise program to keep my back in shape. I know that works and it’s a darn sight cheaper than relying on you.
Its a name for joint dysfunction. Joints can flex, extend, rotate and bend laterally for your information. The ability to rotate is greater in the cervical spine that the lumbar spine because of the shape of the joints which have adapted to evolutionary needs as say the shoulder and hip which in the embryo are very similar.
FYI you can not see a disc herniation on an x ray because its soft tissue. And herniation while painfull may not show misalignment because of the ability of spinal muscles and joints to adapt. Compenstopry arthritis caused by the disc herniation would eventually show on x ray.
Surely the fact I dont take x rays any more, might offer an alternative reason as to why “I dont loose not a second of sleep over it. Read my post again.
Why do you think I use the title Dr, or I dont like evidence based medicine, I am a big fan of David Sackett but find many people who talk EBM have not read Sackett and limit it entirely to published research which is not EBM. I have never been interested in going to med school and a number of excellent physiotherapists have worked for me when I was working in Denmark with their elite athletes.But I wanted to learn to perform spinal adjustments and they dont teach that at physio school who spend to much time messing around with ultra sound and interferential rather than correcting the mechanical problem.
The best thing you can do for your back is stay active and exercise, on that point you will get no argument from me. Hope that helps clarify a few things you seem to have misunderstood about me.
Richard, please contact me if you like. Man have things changed since I saw you last. Sure, some of these guys use the tool wrong, but we’re now the “Tool of Choice” as shown in the AMA’s Medical Text on Range of Motion (it includes Dynamic Surface EMG along with Range of Motion). So here people argue about the validity of the tool, and the AMA recognizes it??? Education is the only way to get people to use the tool properly, and perhaps you can direct me to who in the UK would be good to work with in setting up educational seminars. If not properly educated in the limits of any tool, it opens up the tool for abuse. But in the States the tools are well accepted, with their limitations well known. Thanks! [email protected]
This article was so biased I doubt he can even understand what you are trying to get across to him.
Richard – as a chiropractor, you are unlikely to accept the central argument about X-rays: since, X-rays cannot detect what many chiropractors are supposedly looking for (the mythical subluxations) and since chiropractic cannot be clinically justified for any condition, then X-rays can never be justified and are hence being made illegally.
The General Chiropractic Council, the regulator, desperately clings to the idea that chiropractic is a genuine medical speciality, so is unable to protect the public in this regard.
And if you read my post on X-rays, you will see I understand the legislation having been previously trained in ionising radiation protection.
Andy, you always assume that you know how I think, we will be calling you “Mystic Andy” soon. Did you miss this in my post “in the UK a subluxation is not a valid “clinical reason” for taking an X ray” A subluxation is a name related to joint motion not something which can be demonstrated on x ray.
I challenge you to check out the CBP (Chiropractic Biophysics) technique research as what you have stated ‘…and since chiropractic cannot be clinically justified for any condition…’ is blatantly wrong. There is now much research to show that abnormal spinal shape leads to greater incidence of pain and returning spine to normal position will lead to a reduction in this pain using medically accepted pain analogue scale measurements.
As a chiropractor I typically look at X-rays for contraindications to adjusting. At times I can see vertebrae that are misaligned and can create a listing for a “subluxation” but that’s not the reason I use them. So to overgeneralize every chiropractor as a scammer taking X-rays is incorrect. Many times the findings on the X-rays include disease or cancer, osteoporosis, arthritis, AAA, fractures, and many many other things that are considered valuable to the health of a patient. And might I add most chiropractors are only charging 1/4th the price of a hospital or medical professional.
What amount of misalignment is significant?
Alternately, patients can attend a qualified orthopaedic surgeon FREE on the NHS.
Richard,
Give the same x-ray to five different chiropractors, each in a different room, and ask them each where is the subluxation. Just to make it a little more fun, don’t let them out until they are all in agreement as to where the subluxation lies. By my rough probabilistic reckoning, those chiropractors are going to be in those rooms for a long, long time (33 x 33 x 33 x 33 x 33 and all that sort of thing).
Myovision? Schmyovision!
cant disagree with that. Personally not happy with the way chiropractors have used x rays. Or for that matter the British government using them to estimate the age of immigrant children
Surface electrodes can be used for EMG, though a dab of conducting gel is often required (unless the electrode already has it on). After all an ECG is just a specialised sort of EMG for one particular muscle mass. Also if you have an EOG then your eye movements are recordable with surface electrodes. I used to run a 3rd year medical teaching lab where doing EOG’s was part of it. Since I am not medically qualified, merely a physiologist then they must have been surface electrodes, so my memory is not defective.
As for the Myovision test, I trust the patient is coached extensively in how to relax their back muscles completely or simple postural tensions will tend to give discordant measurements. The muscles around the spine are postural muscles so are almost always active to some extent as can be demonstrated by simply lying on your front or back for some time on the sort of flat surface as a chiropractor’s couch. You will have a strong urge to move after a while as your back muscles get fatigued and send ‘change positions’ signals to your brain.
Also if a vertebrae is ‘out of alignment’ whether or not the associated muscles are differentially active will depend very much on posture and activity. So this muscle expert calls bollocks on this device.
Nice piece Andy, if all else fails do an Edzard, make sweeping statements about chiropractic, that’ll get the hits up!
Again for the umpteenth time, I am a chiropractor, I have never taken x rays, I dont look for subluxations, I have never used the title Dr. and would never even think of using this myo crap that is basically a marketing tool. And AGAIN, I’m not unusual, there are a lot of chiropractors out there like me.
Muscleguy, “There are other things you can do if you don’t get into med school you know. I found one. You could for eg have qualified as a physiotherapist.” How patronising. Do you think we train to be chiros because we are unable to train to be medics?? How ill informed you are. Most chiropractors become chiropractors because they have experienced and benefitted from chiropractic treatment its that simple. Oh and my brother is a “qualified ” physiotherapist who then trained as a chiropractor. Have a guess which he finds gives him the best results? Have a guess why he felt the need to do further training and qualify as a chiropractor?
“A Myovision device is a handheld scanner that is designed to measure electric activity in skeletal muscles. According to the manufacturer……….”
Hmm a scanner that measures voltage. I would be interested to know how it achieves this, I would have thought it was either a scanner or a voltage measuring instrument. A scanner works by emitting a signal and analysing any reflections, I may be a bit behind the times but I don’t understand how voltages can be measured in this way. A voltage measuring instrument detects any difference in potential between two probes, you would therefore need to insert the probes into the tissue to be measured.
So what is it measuring? One possibility it is basically an electrician’s multi range meter set to test resistance. If you take the probes of the meter in your finger tips you will see a deflection of the needle, in effect you are measuring your body’s resistance.
Or maybe it is measuring the temperature of the skin; as alluded to by Richard Lanigan. In either case it looks to be very much a case of “we have the machine that goes beep”
Of course it is, it is a sales gimic. The point I am making is very few chiropractors use them in the UK. But if some chiropractors are using them instead of x raying all their patients, its an improvement on bad practice, which does happen.
Andy finds examples of bad practice and assumes thats what all chiropractors do, even though he knows it is not correct. Liam is a chiropractor and has never taken an x-ray in his life. Less than 30% of chiropractors in the UK have x ray equipment and as the price of MRI comes down, I suspect few will have them in 10 years
“Andy finds examples of bad practice and assumes thats what all chiropractors do”
Evidence?
“Chiropractic & Osteopathy Centre” Andy, Funny how you have automatically presumed its the chiropractic side of this clinic that is using these questionable diagnostsic techniques. Have you any evidence that its not the osteopath thats using the Myovision scan? If you have simply read the article then “presumed” it must be the chiro not the osteo then there is the evidence of your own bias.
Again “Remarkably, it looks like it is common practice for chiropractors in the UK to use some sort of discount incentive and questionable diagnostic procedure to rope customers into ‘wellness’ treatment plans.” I quote “common practice for chiropractors” again shows your own bias and instintive negative attitude to ALL chiropractors.
Andy to give you further evidence of your own bias here is an osteo clinic offering myovision. You sure its the chiropractor?
http://www.osteo4u.co.uk/myovision.php
or
“We have two Osteopath Melbourne locations – Ringwood Osteopathy and Warrandyte Osteopathy. … Back pain scanner that’s out of this world – Evening Standard … But Myovision takes just a few minutes to pinpoint the areas which .”..
So you are happy with your analysis without even looking into it? How does it achieve it? It is precisely how the EKG works. What do you think an EKG is measuring? Heat? No, the summation of depolarizations beneath the skin, measured as a voltage. V-IR. Good luck measuring with an electrician’s multi-range meter (known as a DVM). Considering the fact you believe a “VOLT” meter is measuring resistance (the fact it is called a “volt” meter is supposed to give you a hint that you are measuring voltage. The only deflection you see on the fingertips is the skin’s resistance, or impedance.
We are measuring in the millionths of a volt range with Surface EMG measures which is why you cannot use a DVM for the measures, as the signal is too small. You would have to have a solid physics or electrical engineering background to understand how difficult this is, and how specialize the electronics must be to be capable of extracting such tiny signals.
David Macarian
Any idea what the red and green bars on the top picture represent? What’s the scale? I can’t see any details on myovision’s website.
Impedance??? Measured with a multirange meter??? Do you understand what impedance is?
“So you are happy with your analysis without even looking into it?”
Not sure who you are addressing here. If it is me then all I have done is explain what an electricians multi range meter does.
“ the summation of depolarizations beneath the skin,”
?
V-IR – do you mean Ohm’s law I=V/R? What’s this got to do with it?
“Considering the fact you believe a “VOLT” meter is measuring resistance (the fact it is called a “volt” meter is supposed to give you a hint that you are measuring voltage.”
I didn’t claim that a volt meter measured resistance, I said that you can use an electrician’s multimeter to measure resistance.
“We are measuring in the millionths of a volt range with Surface EMG measures which is why you cannot use a DVM for the measures,”
So you are measuring millivolts, still no big deal you just need a more sensitive voltmeter.
“You would have to have a solid physics or electrical engineering background to understand how difficult this is, and how specialize the electronics must be to be capable of extracting such tiny signals.”
I am an electrical engineer and any A level student would recognize this for the nonsense it is.
“So you are measuring millivolts” Oh dear correction, should have been micro volts.
If you think millionths of a volt is “millivolts” then you establish your lack of knowledge without comment. Look it up, pal. Micro, not milli. HUGE difference. Take a class in physics or something. Look it up. Milli is not “millionths”. micro is “millionths”. And you can’t do it with a DVM. Sorry. Just physics. You tell me how it works. Good luck.
“Take a class in physics or something”
This nothing to do with physics these are logarithms which are a branch of mathematics which is a tool that scientists and engineers use. For your further edification -a logarithm of a number is the exponent by which another fixed value, the base, has to be raised to produce that number. All simple elementary mathematics.
However we do seem to have some agreement in that we have established that the Myovision apparatus measures voltage differences between two or more probes on the surface of the skin. Perhaps David Marcarian could explain how these voltage differences relate to the bars on the diagram? Alan Henness has already asked approximately this question and there doesn’t seem to have been any response.
The electrocardiogram also measures small changes in electrical activity but can be purchased for less than 1000 Euros I note that the Myovision kit seems to cost very much more. Perhaps you could enlighten us?
Which is what paysan said a week ago in his correction.
When I was in the scouts, we made and then played with galvanic skin response meters. This sounds like a “new and improved” version. It measures exactly what it measures, and no inferences can be made. It is a simple instrument that gives simple outputs. There would have to be a well documented basis for any diagnostic, medical or religious, using this instrument.
It is important be educated when reviewing any device for it’s validity and credibility. I would gladly help you understand better the utilization and technology required for Surface EMG measurements.
You state that “Surface EMG” usually uses “needles” which is patently false. If you do a literature review using the term “Surface EMG” via PUBMED you will find 7,560 references. Are all these published researchers using the term incorrectly and all the scientific journals published the word “Surface” when they meant “needle?” Obviously not.
Surface EMG is very well respected tool, as proven by myself in the legal case in Florida against the State of Florida and 300 insurers. It went through appeals and we established it’s value without question.
Considering that the AMA recognizes Surface EMG (See CPT Code 96002 and 96004), you are kind of all alone with your view of it.
But to be specific, there are two types of Surface EMG: Static, showing muscles about the spine while standing, and Dynamic, with electrodes attached and measuring the muscular firing in motion. Both are valuable tools, as is an MRI, but you have to know what the data means to use them.
Having done serious work with Surface EMG at NASA, I would gladly help educate you on the proper use and interpretation of Surface EMG if you like. You can reach me at my email address provided.
In the mean time, if you would like to present a credible case, avoid making technical errors like believing that 7,560 researchers are wrong, when you confidently make statements which are completely false.
There is nothing wrong with presenting an opinion. If you want to have an effect on anyone other than your friends, you may want to back up the opinion with solid data to support it. Always here to help.
David Marcarian
Firslty, apologies if my wording is unclear above. Electromyography devices usually do use needles. Your device is a “surface” version that does not. My wording may be ambiguous – but is not as you quoted it.
But glad to see the NASA claim. One of my principle red flags for dubious health claims. Well done.
But while you are here, as a result of your claimed “7,560 researchers”, can you point me to any systematic review of that evidence that suggests you device has genuine diagnostic effectiveness that can lead to successful chiropractic treatment?
I am here all day, so take your time.
I’m happy you have all day. I’m pretty busy myself. Where do I start.
First off, needle EMG and Surface EMG are both subcatogories of EMG. There is no such thing as “EMG” meaning Needle. Someone simply to go http://www.infotrieve.com which provides a search engine for all the studies published in indexed medical journals. I’m not “claiming” 7,560 studies, it is a fact. The American Medical Association has a five digit CPT code for Surface EMG. It is 96002 (with 96004 as a report). How does the AMA have it as a tool if it does not exist as one? If you want to read the best review of the literature on Surface EMG, read google “Geiser’s” paper published in the Journal of Pain, 2005. A Meta-Analytic Review of Surface Electromyography Among
Persons With Low Back Pain and Normal, Healthy Controls. This is the best overview of Surface EMG relating to low back pain.
I think if the title of this paper says “SURFACE Electromyography” then perhaps game over? I work with both needle and surface EMG, and they are completely different tools. Needle to establish nerve damage, Surface to measure the body’s “guarding” response to injury, aiding with retraining muscles through biofeedback, etc. You can go to http://www.proformavision.com to see a very unique application of Surface EMG.
How about we make a bet? If you search on Surface EMG and to be sure, search on Surface Electromyography, if one of those two search terms in fact has over 7,500 papers published when using http://www.infotrieve.com (it searchers all the databases (pubmed, medline etc). If I win, and there are over 7,500 studies, you take down this nonsense? Deal? I’m willing to bet you won’t take the bet. It costs nothing to do the search but you have to set up a free account.
Come on, you seem very confident. It is important for all out there to recognize that the internet has given an avenue for all kinds of people to publish all kinds of claims and FEEL like they are publishing in the New York Times. The fact is that this is published to make you feel good, not to help spread proper information. If the group of people is really interested in a scientific presentation on Surface EMG, please let me know and I can teach a class via webinar if you like. You won’t though as you are happy with your interpretation of reality.
Please take the bet. Please PLEASE PLEASE! I’m either right, or I’m wrong. You’re either right or your wrong. let the data speak instead of you or I.
You asked for it…
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When I read the comments of chiros like Richard Lanigan and Liam Mulvany, I end up wondering whether there are any truly Scottish chiropractors anywhere.
Scottish????
That whistling sound? It was the joke going over the top of your head.
Wow. Must have been hilarious.
wow just checked out the chiro and osteo site that is offering this myovision that Andy Lewis is so sure that dishonest chiropractors are using. Guess what? the offer is from an osteopath. Check @wells_osteopath twitter for special offer of myovision. So Andy you wanted evidence that you
“Le Canard Noir on April 16, 2012 at 5:04 pm
“Andy finds examples of bad practice and assumes thats what all chiropractors do”
Evidence?
”
There it is your lack of research into a subject followed by your total bias to blame chiropractors.
we could always “play spot the osteopath” in the myovision testimonial webpage if you like:
http://www.myovision.com/products/info-on-3g-system/testimonials
I am amazed at how many words have been spelled wrong and grammar mistakes and vulgar language has been used by so called professionals!!!!You expect people to take you seriously!?Really?!
Personally, I do not take those people seriously who use multiple exclamation remarks and don’t put spaces between sentences.
Straw man?
I don’t think that means what you think it means.
Looking at the link nobby68 gave, http://www.myovision.com/products/info-on-3g-system/testimonials.
Search the page for “chiro” 11 hits
Search the page for “osteo” 0 hits
Again, all I can assume is that the chiros giving testimonials were not truly Scottish. Or, perhaps you mean they’re not even chiros. I don’t think you know what you mean.
We come back to the frequent question. How would I recognise a true chiropractor when I see one? You keep telling us what they are not and what true chiropractors don’t do, but those assertions are refuted almost as soon as someone can get their fingers to the keyboard.
i don’t think that means what they think it means either.
but considering you said “There it is your lack of research into a subject followed by your total bias to blame chiropractors.”
i played spot the osteopath on the testimonial page and could not find one hidden amongst the chiropractors.
Is that not the kind of research you say is lacking looking for a group of people promoting a product on a manufacturuers website that all share a common occupation? or is it too ambiguous?
Again my comment hasn’t been posted. Please re read the sub title of this post and then give me an example of the gcc not protecting the public from chiropractors. It is a straw man argument as the blog has blamed Chiros for using myovision, and it was an osteopath and then criticises the gcc, so you point to a list of chiros that use myovision but none are in the uk. Again please provide evidence that the advert in question was from a chiropractor and then provide evidence that the myovision list has uk chiropractors on that the gcc should be restricting.
The General Chiropractic Council has failed in protecting the public from questionable diagnostic practices.
Sub title from this blog that was started because Andy saw an advert on the local paper and presumed it was the chiropractor. How many uk chiros can you find on that testimonial page?
Richard in accepting that chiropractors cannot agree from x-ray whether or not subluxations are present you ignore the point that presented with the same patient chiropractors also cannot agree on examination which vertebrae need ‘realigning’. So well done on not trusting x-rays but please tell me why we should trust your diagnosis on examination?
Waiting for previous comment to b published. Any question bsm about chiro feel free to ask, but first unlike Andy let me know your occupation do can at least try and draw some comparisons.
Liam Mulvany on April 18, 2012 at 9:34 am
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
The General Chiropractic Council has failed in protecting the public from questionable diagnostic practices.
Sub title from this blog that was started because Andy saw an advert on the local paper and presumed it was the chiropractor. How many uk chiros can you find on that testimonial page?
.[1] To “attack a straw man” is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the “straw man”), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.[1][2
You have not refuted the original position. 1 the blog attacked chiros using myovision. It was not a chiropractor. The blog accuses the gcc of not protecting the public from these dodgy diagnostics but again it was not a chiro so how is the gcc failing? Your straw man is a list of chiros who use myovision in the USA not even uk chiros. Does that explain it for you?
Please publish Andy as this is a valid point.
“Your straw man is a list of chiros who use myovision in the USA not even uk chiros.”
Obviously not Scottish, then.
Talk the talk. Blog a load of crap. Point the finger get proved wrong and what? All quiet? Very disappointing.
Missed that bit about being proved wrong.
you are what people would call a shit disturbing dimwit who cowtows to the medical model which has the right to call everyone a quack who doesnt follow policy set by them
You haven’t proven Andy wrong here. If you use google you can find quite a few UK chiros who are using Myovision. Unless you claim they’
re not real Scotsmen chiros the subtitle seems justified.
as in chinese philosophy if heat accumulates in an area or muscle there is a good chance the skeletal part is involved. a chiropractor then checks the area with his HANDS not just the myovision. the myovision is an adjunct diagnostic to help him zero in on general areas of complaint. in the end its his or her HANDS that feel and check for lack of movement and stiffness. i suppose all of chinese meds and acupunture is hocus pocus too. we should just all shut up and take our antiinflammatorys and muscle relaxants and when the time is right they can do surgery using plates and bolts. u amaze me with your ignorance.
” i suppose all of chinese meds and acupunture is hocus pocus too.”
Obviously, yes it is.
Are you just an asshole or do you actually do any research? Sounds to me, you like to use your own biased opinions and spew it as fact. The writings here and this site is shit.
Looks like you are right chr_yxrzuq. 🙂
This article is nonsensical. Here is a list to support my claim:
1. Myovision does not use any type of invasive measures (needles) to measure electrical stimulus from neuromuscular junctions.
2. The Myovision technology simply uses inclinometry coupled with dynamic surface electromyography to show how the soft tissues are contracting (quality, tone, etc.) and relays that information back to a physiomonitor which then graphs the data. The physician then uses their knowledge of how musculature contracts to interpret what the data means. Both of these methods which are coupled or done individually are approved by the American Medical Association as diagnostic methods to determine soft tissue injury in their published Rang-of-Motion Assessment guidebook which specifically highlights the MyoVision technology.
3. The technology that Myovision uses to measure electrical output of neuromuscular stimulus (i.e.muscular concentric/eccentric contraction) has been proven through peer-reviewed, double-blind randomized clinical trials (RCT’s) and approved to have been published in a number of medical journals.
4.The REAL story about QUACKERY in Chiropractic: I am currently a chiropractic student and agree with you that some, and A BIG EMPHASIS on SOME, Chiropractors still believe the quackery models first put into practice by B.J. Palmer and his Father D.D. Palmer (Founders of Chiropractic) in the year 1895. But, that model is over one hundred years old, and during that era Medical Doctors were still killing more than helping and selling “snake oil” right along side B.J. & D.D. Today, several RCT’s have led the general scientific community to believe that the methods of practice by Chiropractic Physicians may not produce the response to stimulus that early Chiropractors claimed, so I do agree with your statement in part. The major holes in your argument are that modern Chiropractic Philosophy and Treatment Methods are based on a functional model that relates “subluxation” to joint dysfunction. Furthermore, the references you cite have merely not proven that a functional does exist but not that it could not exist which is entirely different if you practice correct analysis following the “Scientific Method” model in which academic analysis of most all medical procedures is based upon.
To say in short: Mr.Lewis you are guilty of copyright infringement because I am sure you did not get the proper permission to post that graphic of the MyoVision Reporting Software, and secondly you must very well be inept at reporting on a factual basis due to the lack of facts upon which you base your statements.
Though I am not a believer in Myovision and some of the tactics taken by many Chiropractors to get a patient to come in for the rest of their lives 3 times a week. I am a Chiropractor who has built a clinic and added, family practice MD’s DO’s as well as dentists and a surgical center with anesthesiologists and interventional radiologists. We do take x-rays and for the record has the same system as the Mayo clinic Scottsdale to limit ionizing radiation. In fact our back wall is regular glass as oppose to leaded glass as there is so little scatter. If I am going to place my hands on a patient , I need to see what the body looks like. God forbid, I put someone with a posterior pelvis in side posture who has low back pain but the reason is a “AAA”. We have found many patients with various forms of cancer, serious degeneration, disc herniations by sending out for MRI (NO radiation) but very diagnostic. There are patients who come into our clinic for headaches and it turns out on an APOM x-ray that their bite is so far off that they need to have their bite checked ad not an adjustment three times a week forever. I ask quackometer this…..Do not lump every single Chiropractor into the same bowl. Some of us refer to the ER and out for surgery or this week a child with had strep and looked like a rash to an allergy dr and the dr. later called me saying” good call” he had scarlet fever. Like many medical doctors that are purely prescription mills. “I know” as our medical division is not that, that there are responsible Chiropractors out there like our clinic who get referrals from Barrows neurological as well as some of the top spine surgeons in the valley because we recognize who needs care and who needs to be referred out. We all need to start working together. In summation, I will say this, for the past 5 years “OUR” facility has beat the top 8 hospitals in the valley for best medical center by our peers as well as patients….We Never advertise yet are very busy, but are not a chiropractic mill. PS, I spent 14 days on an African medical mission this past year with a group of doctors who were cardiologists from Cedar Sinai, NICU doctors from Seattle Childrens and other doctors from various fields across the country. By the end of our mission, they had a completely different opinion of what Doctors of Chiropractic actually do.
Thanks for taking your time to comment on this blog, though as we have both learned, the facts aren’t always the goal of many people attached to their opinions, albeit uninformed they might be. Having practiced Chiropractic and functional medicine for 26 years in Seattle before retiring, I enjoyed the opportunity to assist individuals towards better health, with all of the tools at my disposal. I like you focused on best medicine, and was able to stay above the negative chatter against Chiropractic which was many times proven to be from a point of total ignorance, and at times from a point of competitive self interest. I was too busy practicing to even be aware that there were sites like this one, and only stumbled on it today looking for documentation on SEMG. I testified numerous times before the state legislature to support legislation to allow individuals access to non-medical care by health care practitioners licensed to do so, with the outcome being that people were better to access care which might help them rather than harm them. Unfortunately, these quack buster types did all they could to discredit anyone but a medical doctor, but testimony proved they were being supported by medical interests such as in the Illinois case in 1988 against the AMA and other groups in the state of Illinois . It is unfortunate that here we are 25 years later, and the internet still provides a forum for these uninformed opinions to influence others. The good news is that Daniel Ellsberg? in his papers in the New England Journal of Medicine since 1992, has pointed out that the public in increasing numbers is turning away from medicine and seeking alternatives like Chiropractic, Naturopathy, Nutrition, exercise, etc., avoiding the side effects of drugs and surgeries, of which previously their efficacy was not even questioned. Continue your efforts towards good healthcare and those who are searching for what is in their best health care interests, will find you, in spite of the efforts of the medical directors of the insurers or government agencies and the self elected health experts cluttering up cyberspace with their opinions, the public will find what is in their best interest. Congratulations on your efforts to create an integrated option providing best medicine choices for individuals to improve their health. Dr DW
So, any good evidence, than?
All of the critics here are most likely failures in the profession. In fact I’d bet my life on it. Also, the quoted term “limited therapeutic value” strikes me as a bit odd seeing that Myovision is not a therapeutic modality. Dumb dumb dumb. Of course it has no therapeutic value…it’s NOT a modality or any kind of treatment!!! I don’t own a Myovision btw. Just thought I’d chime in.
I agree with you any chiropractor I have ever met who used this machine used it not for clinical reasons but to scM the public. However your understanding of chiropractic is very limited and i woul be willing to help you learn about real clinical chiropractic and how chiropractic relates to the whole body scientifically and clinically. As someone who has been certified in the real EMG i can tell you this machine is of almost no clinical use. But I don’t want you to ho through life missing out on the benefits of chiropractic.
You are a complete idiot. Do you think Medicare (the government) would pay for treatment that is not effective? Or Blue,Cross Blue Shield?? Or the United States military? Or cancer centers? You sound like just an angry, spiteful, uneducated person. Sad.
A lot of Chiropractic bashers out there. Maybe you went to the wrong one! After doing it 33 yrs I have seen autistic children turn around with one adjustment. I have seen people who could not walk for over two years take adjustments and walk . I have seen people drugged out of their minds. The doctors who treat them prescribe without ANY knowledge of the pills they prescribe. Put 10 patients in a 10 different MDs and get 10 different diagnosis and 10 different prescriptions depending on who their drug rep is that provides the daily sandwiches and so forth Next time you go the DR ask him to name you 2 things in your prescribed drug. He wouldn’t know. Ask him if he has read any studies and 99.9% of the time he has NO IDEA what is in any of the pills. and you are supposed to ask him if the pill is right for you. Your supposed to tell him if you are allergic to the ingredients in the pill you have never had or taken? If he doesnt know what is in it then we could go out on a limb and state he has no idea what is in it , what it will do to you when you take it and tells you if you swell up or want to kill yourself give him a call!!! That is REAL scientific. It is the blind leading the blind . How many iatrogenic deaths a year from this garbage? Time to break out of the conformity of thought sheeple principle? Stop being a DOPE and try Chiropractic for REAL. Prozac there a real winner, how many oxycone deaths a year from there geniuses and how many lives ruined from these so called intelligent fellows? caveat emperior
Never have I seen a better example of a quack with some sort of Messianic belief in themselves.
Please explain in scientific terms how chiropractic can reverse autism. I’m not being sarcastic; I’d really like to know.
My Emg scan readings where off the scale and the scan was abandoned?! I do lots of bodyweight training so ofcourse my muscle are sore and in recovery. It’s intuitive to think that this would influence the readings?
This site should be shut dowsn
Why? Is it affecting your profits?
Debunked!!